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Red Hawk Casino Opens Dec. 17th


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#16 Steve Heard

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 10:27 PM

QUOTE(camay2327 @ Dec 14 2008, 04:29 PM) View Post
If we want to go to the casino's we go to South Lake Tahoe, NV. We go once or twice a year.

I have never and will never go to an Indian casino here in California. I feel that it is discrimination in the worst way. If they can have a casino then I should be able to have a casino. Why should it be just for the Indians?

Cal, come on, give 'em a break.

They lost an entire country, and they can't have a casino? By the way, they are not 'just for the Indians'. Anyone can go there. While it is true that revenue (losses from gamblers) have gone to support members of particular tribes, bringing their standards of living closer to that which we enjoy, and it has given hope to sovereign entities, some of which have little else, they employ thousands of people, buy goods and services from thousands more, and their patrons, who go of their own free will, eat, sleep, shop, recreate and fuel up in the surrounding areas.

I've only been to one of these casinos, Thunder Valley. It was packed with people who were hoping to win a few bucks.

All of those folks went there voluntarily.


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#17 MrsTuffPaws

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 11:05 PM

My elderly parents live in the Palm Springs metro, and I've been to many Indian casino's with them down there. They have a great time, gambling $5 a week on the penny slots, and dancing/watching live entertainment each week in the lounge.

I'm really happy that the Red Hawk will have a live venue, while Thunder Valley does not (currently, maybe they will with their expansion). I'm not a much of a gambler, but I like to go to a casino 3-4 times a year and loose $20 on some slots, and maybe roulette. More fun per dollar than a movie nowadays, for me at least.

I was kinda bummed about the Red Hawk arcade though, says you can't attend without a 12 or under child chaperon. I want to play ski ball and air hockey too, damnit!





#18 camay2327

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 11:57 PM

Anyone that wants to go, GO. I don't have a problem with that. I will not go. I love Tahoe. I get a free room at Harvey's or Harrah's and gamble at my hearts content. We also take in a free show or two.

No Indian casino's for me.
A VETERAN Whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America" for an amount "up to and including their life". That is HONOR, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it. -Author unknown-

#19 4thgenFolsomite

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 06:59 AM

QUOTE(camay2327 @ Dec 14 2008, 04:29 PM) View Post
If we want to go to the casino's we go to South Lake Tahoe, NV. We go once or twice a year.

I have never and will never go to an Indian casino here in California. I feel that it is discrimination in the worst way. If they can have a casino then I should be able to have a casino. Why should it be just for the Indians?



About 160 years ago, there was a band of Maidu Nissinan Indians living in Folsom. They moved during the year between their primary housing pretty close to where historic Folsom and the Salmon Falls area, where they caught and dried eels for themselves and for trade. They lived here for literally thousands of years without a CostCo! This was their home and they left their mark on it; mortar holes and petroglyphs on granite outcrops. Then after gold was discovered, they were quickly marginalized. It became harder to hunt and gather foods because the miners scared the deer and screwed up the rivers, plus they drove them off any water sources because that's where they were mining. They were also shot at on a regular basis and viewed as animals. The State of California gave a reward for a while for an Indian's scalp when hostilities with Indians from Oregon became "troublesome." The motherlode Indians had been pretty widely disturbed by the time the Federal government tried to apply some Bureau of Indian Affair's sort of organization. Unlike other states had significantly intact Indian bands, northern California had smaller, more dessimated groups of survivors hanging on. So they formed "rancherias," the smaller version of a reservation. One of the rancheries was up in Auburn, on that hilltop as you climb up Folsom-Auburn Road into town and can look back and see Folsom Lake. They relocated the surviving Indians from Folsom up to live on that rocky, waterless land, along with other local Maidu. And they did the best they could. Over the years, different Bureau of Indian Affairs policies came and went, like the Indian Allotment Act, etc., where Indians could give up their claims to rancheria land and get some cash or more up the hill a little farther. No matter what, they all had pretty desperately poor lives, often troubled by alcoholism and discrimination. Lots of kids were forced to distant Indian boarding schools and never came back, so families were also broken up. So things weren't going so well for the people who had lived here. Until some smart lawyer somewhere realized that they were recognized by the federal government as soveriegn (indepedent) nations, just like Canada or Mexico, and that their lands were foreign land that they could do whatever they wanted on. Including set up casinos (like Nevada!). So they did. Long story short, the same Indians who used to live, sleep, work, get hitched, have babies, and die for thousands of years in Folsom until they were violently forced off and subjected to live in grinding poverty for 150 years, are now the proud owners of the Thunder Valley Casino!!

and, that, Camay, is why they can have a casino and you can't!
Knowing the past helps deciphering the future.

#20 Al Waysrite

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 10:09 AM

QUOTE(stevethedad @ Dec 14 2008, 10:27 PM) View Post
Cal, come on, give 'em a break.

They lost an entire country, and they can't have a casino? By the way, they are not 'just for the Indians'. Anyone can go there. While it is true that revenue (losses from gamblers) have gone to support members of particular tribes, bringing their standards of living closer to that which we enjoy, and it has given hope to sovereign entities, some of which have little else, they employ thousands of people, buy goods and services from thousands more, and their patrons, who go of their own free will, eat, sleep, shop, recreate and fuel up in the surrounding areas.

I've only been to one of these casinos, Thunder Valley. It was packed with people who were hoping to win a few bucks.

All of those folks went there voluntarily.


Here are a few facts about Indian casinos:

They are exempt from our laws. They do not have to comply with OSHA rules, provide workers' compensation for their employees, nor can they be sued by patrons in California or federal courts due to "sovereignty." Therefore even under the most egregious of circumstances they are free from liability.

If you should slip and fall in an indian casino, injure your head and become a vegetable, in an area where 10 people have previously slipped before and the tribe knew there was a highly dangerous condition, you are without any recourse. I suppose others here along with myself also read published accounts of people who won large jackpots on indian slots, only to have the tribe void the payout due to an alleged "slot machine malfunction. If that occured at a Nevada casino the person could get the payout ordered by the Nevada gaming commission. Indian casinos do not have any commission over them.

#21 4thgenFolsomite

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 10:24 AM

QUOTE(Al Waysrite @ Dec 15 2008, 10:09 AM) View Post
Here are a few facts about Indian casinos:

They are exempt from our laws. They do not have to comply with OSHA rules, provide workers' compensation for their employees, nor can they be sued by patrons in California or federal courts due to "sovereignty." Therefore even under the most egregious of circumstances they are free from liability.

If you should slip and fall in an indian casino, injure your head and become a vegetable, in an area where 10 people have previously slipped before and the tribe knew there was a highly dangerous condition, you are without any recourse. I suppose others here along with myself also read published accounts of people who won large jackpots on indian slots, only to have the tribe void the payout due to an alleged "slot machine malfunction. If that occured at a Nevada casino the person could get the payout ordered by the Nevada gaming commission. Indian casinos do not have any commission over them.



That's true. If you go to Mexico, you're pretty much on your own too. That's part of the deal.
However, the Indian Casinos around here have stiff competition, so they seem to play on the up and up. Plus, you have to love those buffets!!
Knowing the past helps deciphering the future.

#22 ngilbert

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 10:30 AM

QUOTE(4thgenFolsomite @ Dec 15 2008, 10:24 AM) View Post
That's true. If you go to Mexico


Or Monte Carlo for that matter. But it's a fair warning.

The issues around casinos I've always heard have been how they impact the communities surrounding the tribal lands - usually specifically if the towns can handle the increased car traffic in and out of there or not.
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Sinatra "Here's to the Losers"

#23 Bill Z

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 10:51 AM

QUOTE(ngilbert @ Dec 15 2008, 10:30 AM) View Post
Or Monte Carlo for that matter. But it's a fair warning.

The issues around casinos I've always heard have been how they impact the communities surrounding the tribal lands - usually specifically if the towns can handle the increased car traffic in and out of there or not.

Well, for Red Hawk, they got a brand new on & off ramp and road, so other than the freeway, not much traffic impact to the locals is my guess (other than the impact during the construction of the on & off ramps)
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#24 camay2327

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 10:56 AM

QUOTE(4thgenFolsomite @ Dec 15 2008, 06:59 AM) View Post
About 160 years ago, there was a band of Maidu Nissinan Indians living in Folsom. They moved during the year between their primary housing pretty close to where historic Folsom and the Salmon Falls area, where they caught and dried eels for themselves and for trade. They lived here for literally thousands of years without a CostCo! This was their home and they left their mark on it; mortar holes and petroglyphs on granite outcrops. Then after gold was discovered, they were quickly marginalized. It became harder to hunt and gather foods because the miners scared the deer and screwed up the rivers, plus they drove them off any water sources because that's where they were mining. They were also shot at on a regular basis and viewed as animals. The State of California gave a reward for a while for an Indian's scalp when hostilities with Indians from Oregon became "troublesome." The motherlode Indians had been pretty widely disturbed by the time the Federal government tried to apply some Bureau of Indian Affair's sort of organization. Unlike other states had significantly intact Indian bands, northern California had smaller, more dessimated groups of survivors hanging on. So they formed "rancherias," the smaller version of a reservation. One of the rancheries was up in Auburn, on that hilltop as you climb up Folsom-Auburn Road into town and can look back and see Folsom Lake. They relocated the surviving Indians from Folsom up to live on that rocky, waterless land, along with other local Maidu. And they did the best they could. Over the years, different Bureau of Indian Affairs policies came and went, like the Indian Allotment Act, etc., where Indians could give up their claims to rancheria land and get some cash or more up the hill a little farther. No matter what, they all had pretty desperately poor lives, often troubled by alcoholism and discrimination. Lots of kids were forced to distant Indian boarding schools and never came back, so families were also broken up. So things weren't going so well for the people who had lived here. Until some smart lawyer somewhere realized that they were recognized by the federal government as soveriegn (indepedent) nations, just like Canada or Mexico, and that their lands were foreign land that they could do whatever they wanted on. Including set up casinos (like Nevada!). So they did. Long story short, the same Indians who used to live, sleep, work, get hitched, have babies, and die for thousands of years in Folsom until they were violently forced off and subjected to live in grinding poverty for 150 years, are now the proud owners of the Thunder Valley Casino!!

and, that, Camay, is why they can have a casino and you can't!



You don't have to explain to me how badly the Indians had it and how we stole their land and all that. My daughter minored in Native American studies in college and I have read a lot of her books.
That is not why I can not own and run a casino. It is the state of California, the house and senate that says I can't. If we passed a law saying other individuals than Native Americans could own and run a casino we then could.

In the mean time you can all flock to their casinos and I will make my nice trip to Lake Tahoe.
A VETERAN Whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America" for an amount "up to and including their life". That is HONOR, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it. -Author unknown-

#25 Bill Z

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 11:05 AM

QUOTE(camay2327 @ Dec 15 2008, 10:56 AM) View Post
You don't have to explain to me how badly the Indians had it and how we stole their land and all that. My daughter minored in Native American studies in college and I have read a lot of her books.
That is not why I can not own and run a casino. It is the state of California, the house and senate that says I can't. If we passed a law saying other individuals than Native Americans could own and run a casino we then could.

In the mean time you can all flock to their casinos and I will make my nice trip to Lake Tahoe.

Gambling doesn't really do it for me, and as my wife doesn't like buffets, odds are I may never step foot inside RedHawk. I've been to Jackson Rancheria once, it was our lunch stop for a catered lunch as part of a drive with the Autoexotica Car Club a few years ago. I only went into the Banquet room for lunch and never tried to find my way to a gambling table.

When I drive up to the Lake Tahoe area, it isn't to cross the border, I usually take hwy 89 south until I get to the Big Meadow Trailhead. Park and then go backpacking.
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#26 Steve Heard

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 11:08 AM

QUOTE(Al Waysrite @ Dec 15 2008, 10:09 AM) View Post
Here are a few facts about Indian casinos:

They are exempt from our laws.

For what it's worth, according to Wikipedia, that statement is false. They are subject to our laws under the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act. "The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act is a 1988 United States federal law which establishes the jurisdictional framework that presently governs Indian gaming...The stated purposes of the act include providing a legislative basis for the operation/regulation of Indian gaming, protecting gaming as a means of generating revenue for the tribes, encouraging economic development of these tribes, and protecting the enterprises from negative influences (such as organized crime). The law established the National Indian Gaming Commission and gave it a regulatory mandate. The law also delegated new authority to the U.S. Department of the Interior and also created new federal offenses, giving the U.S. Department of Justice authority to prosecute them.

They do not have to comply with OSHA rules, provide workers' compensation for their employees, nor can they be sued by patrons in California or federal courts due to "sovereignty." Therefore even under the most egregious of circumstances they are free from liability.

These might be good reasons not to work for them, but I suspect that if they were mistreating their employees, it would have made some sort of news.

If you should slip and fall in an indian casino, injure your head and become a vegetable, in an area where 10 people have previously slipped before and the tribe knew there was a highly dangerous condition, you are without any recourse. I suppose others here along with myself also read published accounts of people who won large jackpots on indian slots, only to have the tribe void the payout due to an alleged "slot machine malfunction. If that occured at a Nevada casino the person could get the payout ordered by the Nevada gaming commission. Indian casinos do not have any commission over them.

I true, this would no doubt make the news, and our wonderful honest caring giving law-abiding casino owners in Nevada would make sure it was publicized ad nauseum. I happen to know someone from right here in Folsom who won a million dollar jackpot and he was paid for it, though our government took a gigantic chunk out of it.


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#27 4thgenFolsomite

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 11:26 AM

QUOTE(camay2327 @ Dec 15 2008, 10:56 AM) View Post
You don't have to explain to me how badly the Indians had it and how we stole their land and all that. My daughter minored in Native American studies in college and I have read a lot of her books.
That is not why I can not own and run a casino. It is the state of California, the house and senate that says I can't. If we passed a law saying other individuals than Native Americans could own and run a casino we then could.

In the mean time you can all flock to their casinos and I will make my nice trip to Lake Tahoe.



well, actually, I think I did explain in there how they were set up as soveriegn entities, which is why the state of California, the house and the senate treat Native Americans as seperate. You can thank the Federal Government for Native Americans having laws outside those that govern you.
Knowing the past helps deciphering the future.

#28 Dave Burrell

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 11:37 AM

QUOTE(Bill Z @ Dec 15 2008, 11:05 AM) View Post
Gambling doesn't really do it for me, and as my wife doesn't like buffets, odds are I may never step foot inside RedHawk. I've been to Jackson Rancheria once, it was our lunch stop for a catered lunch as part of a drive with the Autoexotica Car Club a few years ago. I only went into the Banquet room for lunch and never tried to find my way to a gambling table.

When I drive up to the Lake Tahoe area, it isn't to cross the border, I usually take hwy 89 south until I get to the Big Meadow Trailhead. Park and then go backpacking.


same goes for us, plus I'm really not keen on throwing away my hard earned money

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#29 Al Waysrite

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 12:57 PM

What I stated about the lack of legal rights within Indian casinos was pure legal fact.

Steve's response is mere speculation.

The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act does not create a private right of action against a tribe (even in federal court), see Hartman v Kickapoo Tribe 319 F.3d 1230.

Similarly, tribes and their members are immune from suit due to lack of jurisdiction over the tribe or its members, see Great West Casinos v. Morongo Band of Mission Indians 74 Cal.App.4th 1407.

If you have a claim against a Nevada (or New Jersey) casino you can seek redress in state or federal court.

#30 Al Waysrite

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 01:03 PM

Here's one of many such stories of Indian tribes claiming "malfunction" after big jackpots:

from ABC news 10/25/07:

For about an hour last August, Gary Hoffman was a very lucky man.

A New Mexico man sues after a casino refuses to pay $1.6 million in winnings.Hoffman was playing the nickel slot machines at the Sandia Resort and Casino on an Indian reservation in New Mexico when he appeared to hit the jackpot: the machine said he won nearly $1.6 million.

"I became ecstatic," he said.

But the ecstasy was short-lived. Hoffman says in a lawsuit filed earlier this year that Sandia refused to pay, claiming that the machine malfunctioned. Instead, he said, they gave him about $385 and a few free meals at the casino.

"I won money, fair and square, and I've been cheated out of my winnings," Hoffman told ABC News.

The casino says it's not responsible for what it describes as a computer error and says it offered Hoffman the maximum payout of $2,500 for that particular slot machine. But, a jury may never decide who is right. Lawyers told ABC News that gamblers like Hoffman may have little legal recourse against Native American casinos, which sometimes operate beyond the reach of U.S. courts.






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