17 replies to this topic

[Sea Ray Owner]

At the risk of seeming like the CC&R cop.... here we go again

We seem to have a couple of satellite dishes on the front of homes... which is a clear violation of CC&R 1.24

Radio and Television Antennas - No owner shall construct or use and external radio or television antenna or satellite dish except for one (1) exterior single-family residential television satellite dish per Lot having a radius of no more than 1 meter, screened from view from the streets in and around the Property.

I would say that the front of the house is not screened from view of the street.... I would agree that the side of the house is sufficient. What are the thoughts from my neighbors here?

I also know that companies such as Dish network will at times require a second dish to receive local language and world region television. I am thinking that the CC&R's need to allow for this item. Your thoughts?

There are 2 homes on Mallard with Dishes on the front of the home... for those who would like to take a walk and see...

Please no comments on Satellite versus cable on this thread... this is not where I would like to go here... and yes I do have satellite... and it would be very tough for anyone to see where mine is positioned.

If you could ring in your thoughts...... I would appreciate it.

[CoachWeise]

Personally, I would put it out of view, but that's my preference...

When it comes to other homes, I really don't notice them these days, they're so common place. While it would be nice if they were concealed, it doesn't bother me if they aren't. I also don't see a difference between the side of the house and front -- if it's visible it's visible, regardless of the "attempt" to conceal. If one location is okay, so should the other.

Coach Weise.

[Hotdog]

What if the only unfettered views of the southern skies is from the front of your home?

[DougP]

At the risk of seeming like the CC&R cop.... here we go again

We seem to have a couple of satellite dishes on the front of homes... which is a clear violation of CC&R 1.24

A few years ago (1996 IIRC) the FCC ruled that HOA and CC&R restrictions that disallow outdoor antennas are unenforceable.

See:

FCC Dish overview website

And:

FCC ruling details

Now, they do say that rules that apply to placement, color, etc. are enforceable so long as the person can still receive a signal.

Given that some rules are enforceable, and blanket bans are not, it depends on how your CC&Rs are written, and whether you're in the mood to sue someone.

[s0479]

I'm in Willow Springs, they don't bother me. I agree with conceal if you can but I'm not sure if I'd even notice it.

[Sea Ray Owner]

Hotdog the interesting thing is that if the front of your home is southern facing you could easily receive satellite signal from the left or right side of your home.... and be within compliance. Realistically you could very easily obtain satellite signal from behind a two story home due to our location on the planet.... Stand looking south imagine a line shoot straight up from your head to the sky... this is 90 degrees... then imagine a line shooting straight from your toes along the ground... this would be 0 degrees.... with your arm point out a point roughly in the middle.... approx 45 degrees.... (give or take 5 degrees) and that is roughly where the satellite signal is coming from.... fairly high in the sky.... the signal comes from that position... bounces off of the dish and into the collector (little box in front pointing back at the dish) also known as the LNBF. Having installed 2 dishes on friends homes here in WS were the front of the home faces south... one is installed on the side... the other in the yard three feet off of the ground in behind the home.... I am very confident that an easy solution could be found.

Many of us are victim of the "free professional install" where the installer will in some cases utilize the easiest location. This is unfortunate

DougP ... please know that I am actually looking into getting our CC&R's modified to support the need for a 2 dish system. I think the CC&R's of 1999/2000 need to be spruced up to support the technical needs of the common satellite subscriber (that sounds horrible...sorry) Thanks for the links.... they are indeed a great resource. I utilized them in the past when I lived in the Parkway and the aggressive HOA tried to beat me up.

so479, All, while the satellite on the front of the house thing is by no means the highest on my "it bothers me" list it is a violation of the WS CC&R's. After recently requesting compliance of another neighbor in regard to their boat.... I feel it would not be fair to complain to these folks and not the dish violator folks.... I try very hard to not let my personal severity scale skew the application of our CC&R's which intentionally left severity at the wayside.

I am very proud of our neighborhood.... and while a relatively new comer to this area this area has neighborly friendship unlike many of my previous neighborhoods..... our neighborhood has a nice location... values continue to rise.... it makes good sense to put that final <rub><rub> polish on to make it unbelievable.

Thank you for the input I love to hear from everyone!!

[CoachWeise]

I guess what makes a perfect neighborhood varies from person to person... I could care less what's in the CC&Rs in terms of the neighborhood, if I wanted a strict enforcement of the CC&R's I would've gone where there is a HOA... I prefer a friendly environment where issues of safety are dealt with first .... I am also concerned with home value, of course, and I would also expect anything that brings down a home's value gets dealt with within reason (e.g., someone painting their house an extreme color or something like that).

Satellite dishes are a norm now. They do not bring down the value of the neighborhood. They are not a safety hazard... They are not a code violation.

If I recall from when I bought my house in WS the CC&Rs are enforced through an Architectural Review Committee... Good luck!! While I can see reason for asking Gary and Dawn to relocate the boat and trailer due to the potential safety hazard (btw: The painting on the grass will likely extend their side yard to store their boat, not an RV as many have surmised), I do not see any reason to go pursue someone with a satellite dish on the front of their house. It sounds like you got used to strict CC&Rs are should be back in the Parkway where that strictness is enforced by the HOA.

Coach Weise.

[Cloud9]

I can't imagine that many people would purposely want the dish in the front of their homes. Perhaps that was the only location where the installer felt they could get a signal?

[anonymous]

My dish is in the back of my home, as to not distrub my neighbors or create an eyesore. If the only place a dish could be installed was in front, maybe a quick coat of paint to match the house might help hide, wouldn't bother me either way. As for the unsafe boat on Pintail, that was irresponsible and dangerous on the owners part and rude with the garbage and BBQ. I believe the CC&R's prohibit the boat pad being placed in front of their home, why can't they park it in the side yard or an RV/boad storage facility? I'm sure when they moved into their home they were told of the CC&R's for RV & boat storage, maybe they should have bought a home in an older neighborhood where CC&R's arn't in place. As for SeaRay Owner, maybe a hobbie would keep you busy?

[Sea Ray Owner]

CoachWeise I agree with you in regard to the fact that everyone has their own unique opinion regarding the "perfect" neighborhood. The basis of this post, however, does not pertain to a vision of the perfect neighborhood. The basis of this post is in regard to satellite dish on the front of homes which is clearly not screened from view of the streets as stated in the CC&R's and is thus a violation (I hate the sound of this word as it is harsh... my apologies) of the CC&R's. I am merely asking that we adjust these items (in this case our dishes) to fall in line with the CC&R's. I am not asking for anyone to like the CC&R's (I myself have issues with several of our CC&R's) however the reality is that the CC&R's are the "rules" for our neighborhood. The most interesting thing is that all of us signed an agreement that we have read, understand, and will abide by the CC&R's before we signed the final purchase papers for our Willow Springs homes. Renters or leasees do not get off the hook either... the CC&R's have provisions for this as well, subjecting renters and leasees (spelling?) to the same set of "rules".

So let’s summarize for a moment... All of us (meaning Willow Springs residents) signed a binding agreement stating that we have read, understand, and agree to abide by the CC&R's (your title company can provide you with a copy of the agreement we have all signed).... and now there are some who choose not to care or hope for a lack of enforcement due to no HOA? Absolutely no disrespect intended but I am confused.... Do we only play in a sports game only if we know the referees are not going to enforce the rules? Is it ok to cheat if we know the teacher will not be monitoring the class to ensure no cheating is taking place?

I do agree that dishes are very common place and that they have no effect on the value of a home. My intention was not to make a correlation between home value and oval dish.

Cloud9 I very much agree..... I would think that many folks would not choose the front of the home as the preferred location. To reiterate from my previous post I believe many folks are victim of the "free professional install" which when decoded may sometimes mean... the fastest, easiest, cheapest way to get into your monthly budget I spoke with the customer service folks of the 2 large satellite TV providers this evening ... one will move the dish for free to fall in line with local CC&R's and the other will do the move for $50. Both indicated they would need to be alerted to the provisions of the CC&R's prior to the appointment.

Anonymous... I would like to thank you for your considerate placement of your dish... the coat of paint does help... unfortunately does not resolve the issue. I agree with you regarding the boat... and I thank the owner (will do so via mail as well) for resolving the issue. You are very correct the CC&R's: CC&R 1.11 says that one trailer or boat can be parked on the parcel provided it is parked in an enclosed area (as in behind the fence on the side yard or such) and not visible from the street CC&R 1.10 states that the fence cannot extend into the front yard beyond the front of the dwelling unit. If the additional information from CoachWeise is the plan the neighbors would once again be in violation of the CC&R's. We will work through this item if necessary. I provided our neighbors with a full copy of the latest amended CC&R's and I am confident that they will devise a abiding solution. As for the hobby your right... CC&R patrol only satisfies one portion of the definition of hobby... it is indeed outside of my regular occupation but not engaged primarily for pleasure... therefore not a hobby.

To address the other items brought up:

-the boat issue was pursued by me as it was a violation of CC&R's which is enforcable... the saftey issue was also a great concern.. but tougher to enforce a saftey issue on private property.

-enforcement of the CC&R's is explained at section 6.01 entitled enforcement. It affords me as an Owner the right to enforce the CC&R's within the provisions outline in 6.01. I intend to utilize this right.

-I invoked enforcement and notification with the our boat owning neighbors. Thanks to their cooperation the issue is resolved. It would be very unfair to these neighbors if the CC&R's were not evenly applied to all Willow Springs residents. Unbiased and even application of enforcement of the CC&R's is the only enforcement I believe should be actioned.

As I said before I am very proud of our neighborhood... the neighbors are wonderful... the neighborhood has fantastic displays of owners creativity and individuality in landscaping and upgrades... fantastic location... I could go on (but I have nearly written a book at this point so I will not). I believe very much in CC&R's.... I do not care for some of our CC&R's but I ensure that I abide. I did once leave my garbage can outside of my gate by mistake...... I preceded to kick my own butt for this ... and would like to apologize to all of you folks for the violation.

Thanks to CoachWeise, Cloud9, S0479, and the anonymous person for their valuable replies..... this type of discussion is great. I do wish to express that my posts are meant in the most courteous, friendly, and respectful manner and are not intended to ruffle any feathers. I tend to be blunt which at times has been taken as harsh.... this is not my intention. I am know that many folks in violation are not aware of the violation… this is why I choose the notify and provide documentation in a friendly manner. Thanks

[Terry]

Bravo! I absolutely agree with you that there is no excuse for not abiding by CC&Rs. If people don't think they're fair, or don't intend to fully support compliance with them, then they shouldn't sign agreeing to abide by them, and shouldn't move into areas governed by them.

[anonymous]

I also agree with Coach Weise; it is extremely hard to enforce something when there is no enforcement authority. I do not mean to to say that individual owners cannot pursue remedies for an alleged violation, but it is difficult to seek remedy for alleged violations that do not pertain to safety or are in gross disregard of community standards.

Sometimes, people go from being right to becoming righteous. I, for one, prefer to live in Coach Weise community - friendy and neighborly without unnecessary regulatory minutiae (and my dish is not in the front of my house either.)

[CoachWeise]

I guess that I just believe more in following the intent of the CC&Rs rather than having strict enforcement of them...

There are plenty of laws on the books that are ludicrous and aren't enforced and people break them all the time...

For example, in Kentucky:
"No female shall appear in a bathing suit on any highway within this state unless she be escorted by at least two officers or unless she be armed with a club."

The law was later amended with: "The provisions of this statute shall not apply to females weighing less than 90 pounds nor exceeding 200 pounds, nor shall it apply to female horses."

Look out in New Hampshire:
You may not tap your feet, nod your head, or in any way keep time to the music in a tavern, restaurant, or cafe.


And I know there are crazy California laws too... Now I realize that I'm going a bit off tangent here, but your premise is that here are the rules therefore they must be obeyed. I don't believe anyone should blindly follow anything --- it's good to ask why should I or what's the point of this... Of course, in doing so you have to move beyond what your perception is, blah, blah, moving away from the point of the post so I won't go there...

The intent of any CC&R's is to keep the community looking good and maintaining its value. To what degree they are enforced is up to the community and I would say primarily one's immediate neighbors... Yes, I did sign them and while I don't know them inside and out I would say that I probably follow most if not all of them. The reason I signed them is because you had to in order to move in, the only other choice is to not move in.

In the case of the dishes I believe that *if* the only reason someone cares about them being in the front yard is because the CC&Rs say they're not supposed to be then that person needs to find something better to do with their time

As to which rules to enforce, which you don't... In your most recent post it would seem you want everything enforced to the letter... However, in your original post you stated that the CC&R's permit a dish that is "screened from view from the streets in and around the Property." Then you went on to say, "I would say that the front of the house is not screened from view of the street.... I would agree that the side of the house is sufficient. What are the thoughts from my neighbors here?" So in your original post you're saying it's okay to break the CC&R's because the side of ones house is not screened from the street, it's just on the side....

Coach Weise.

[Sea Ray Owner]

Folks .... sorry for the delay reply... but I had family and business obligations that I had to care for.

Coach.. thanks for the response here...

The correlation that you draw between strange laws, crafted decades... and possibly hundred of years ago, and our CC&R's is interesting.... but not sure it is applicable. The items you talk about are laws... as a member of society you are expected to know and follow these laws... if you do not like the laws you can challenge them and work to have them changed. CC&R's are not laws it is more of a contract type system where to rules are presented (disclosed) to you as a requirement of owning a home in Willow Springs. Once the CC&R's are presented, you are asked to read, understand and agree to abide. If you are able to fulfill these requirements of reading, understanding, and in the future abiding by the rules, you are then asked to sign your name in agreement. Sorry for the reiteration here... but as we covered before... we all did this. I think it would be impossible to ask anyone to blindly follow the CC&R's seeing that out of the available Willow Springs residents we had 100% of the folks sign the paperwork which states the three key items (read, understand, abide). It is not blind if the data has been covered with everyone.

I agree with you that CC&R's are in place to keep WS looking good and maintaining value. However you are incorrect in regards to whom can enforce. 6.01 in the General Provisions section begins with "Any Owner, and/or the holder of a mortgage of an Owner, (the mortgagee) shall have the right to enforce, by proceeding at law or in equity, all restrictions, conditions, covenants, and reservations." It continues... but this is the part which specifies who has the option to enforce. I say option as you are not required to enforce but as an owner here you very much have the right. Additionally by not enforcing the CC&R's you are not waiving the right to enforce other CC&R's or the same CC&R in the future (6.02).

I am confident that the majority of us are following all CC&R's ..... You are very correct that a signature is required to move into this neighborhood... you other option is to move somewhere else.

It is very much me who is caring about them for 1 reason... on the front of the home they are unsightly, in my opinion of course. The reason the item is enforceable and I am able to pursue is due to the fact that it is a violation of CC&R's. I appreciate your concern for my time management, however I can assure you that it is satisfying my requirements and does not require adjustment at this time.

In my previous post I mentioned that it would be unfair to enforce but not to the letter.

I have indeed mis-spoken... I meant to state: "I would say that the front of the house is not screened from view of the street... I could (did not mean to write would) agree that the side of the house is sufficient. I say in this manner as screened from view can be interpreted differently by different folks... this CC&R is not well written in my opinion.... on the side of the house is very much more screened than the front... i.e. less than 90 degree plane of view.... whereas the front of the home has 180 degree view ability from the street. We would very much need further clarification and definition prior to making a decision on dishes on the side of the home. Clear violation occurs with the dishes on the front of the home....

This week I will be working to find the appropriate party who can revise the Dish CC&R into a better worded and defined CC&R. I will also be requesting that we amend the CC&R to include 2 dishes due to the technical necessity of some families who wish to receive local language programming. I personally do not have this need I only need one dish however I believe this to be worth the effort to try and change.

Anonymous it sounds like you answered your own question in regard to who enforces WS CC&R's.... it is all of us if we choose.

Interesting to think of how the community would run would if everyone was to hand pick which CC&R's they believe are important enough to follow and then expect no enforcement.....

hmmm... this would be really great to do on your next car purchase.... you walk in...... find the one you want.... get the month payment amount.... then you read, understand, and agree to abide by the contract..... and sign that you can fulfill or have fulfilled these requirements... but then next month you change your mind and want to only pay a smaller month amount..... is this ok? Would you then be angry at the repo man when she/he comes to enforce the contract?

I have asked and worked with neighbors to enforce several CC&R violations since moving here.... I truly hope that I have conducted myself in a very friendly and respectful manner.... and I will be working very hard to continue in this fashion. I work to enforce by the book which does not allow for my personal opinion or feelings. I offer to help remedy the situation if I am able. In some instances I cannot offer this help. It saddens a bit as some folks seem to be a bit angered by my intentions to enforce our CC&R's.

I would once again like to thank (in the order posted since my last post) Terry, Anonymous, and Coach Weise for their posts in regard to this subject.


Edited for my horrible spelling.... :-)

[CoachWeise]

Have fun with your crusade... WS was a nice neighborhood to live in even before you got here and no one has cared about the items you bring up. The boat I could understand... The Satellite dishes I think you're just looking for items that don't follow the CC&Rs so you have something to do and/or complain about.

Enjoy...

Coach Weise --- A resident in what has been a great neighborhood since day 1.