219 replies to this topic

[Terry]

Shadow - what you described is exactly what is in the works for that intersection. Everything will be designed to strongly discourage traffic from coming onto Sibley north of Glenn, including the turn pocket shortening/lengthening as appropriate, light duration, etc.

As for a 3-way stop at Diamond Glen, that was not part of the proposal, and I don't know that it's really necessary. It probably would cause more problems since it's such a short distance from Glenn/Sibley.

Just this morning, I stopped at Sibley and Lembi heading south on Sibley and a younger woman in silver landcruiser type vehicle coming down Lembi was prepared to blow the stop sign when she saw me and had to stop. She then rode my a** (within 4 feet of my bumper) to show me her displeasure at having to stop for the stop sign because of me. Then she crossed over the double yellow lines in front of the mobile home park on Sibley and got up to probably 50 miles an hour before she had to stop at the intersection of Glenn and Sibley. The funny thing was, I caught up to her (without breaking any traffic laws) at Blue Ravine, where she hauled a** again from that light, then I caught up with her again at Iron Point where she got stuck at the red light and I turned onto Iron Point.

At any rate, nothing will discourage true fools from driving the way they do, but the planned improvements at Sibley and Glenn will go a long way (I think) to improving traffice in the Sibley/Lembi/Bidwell/Natoma areas.

[Orangetj]

Shadow,

That's an excellent plan, and as Terry said it sounds like it's already in the works. I think that will go a long way toward alleviating the problems along Sibley. I also agree completely that additional stop signs are needed on Lembi, as the road seems to encourage speeding. As a resident of Lembi, I see it every day. I can't help but think that three or four additional stop signs along Lembi would significantly cut down on speeding and would serve the secondary goal of making the street less attractive to cut-through drivers. While some would no doubt run the stop signs, my feeling is that MOST people actually stop at them. This really seems like a very low cost action that could have a very positive impact on Lembi.

I am constantly amazed by the number of people who blow through the stop sign at Sibley and Lembi. These are almost always cars traveling along Sibley. Since I've lived here, I've personally seen 3 accidents happen at this intersection. I, myself, have been nearly hit a couple of times by people who didn't intend to stop. What's incredible, is that on both occassions, the speeding drivers honked at ME and gave me the look like I had done something stupid. Over the past few months, I've seen a disturbing increase in the number of cars running the stop sign. Many of these people just beep their horns a few times before blasting through the intersection at 40+ mph, as though to warn others that they aren't going to stop. What's that about? My upstairs windows overlook this intersection and I see this happen several times a day. It's really only a matter of time before somebody is hurt or killed at this intersection by one of these inconsiderate scofflaws.

[Sibley Resident]

As usual I write a book, I’m sorry this is so long, but I wanted to provide as much explanation as why I wanted to try this. The others on the committee that wanted to try this may agree with my reasoning or have their own reasons I cannot speak for them. This is some of what I know and my opinions on this.

There are more traffic patterns through this area than I think anyone could even imagine. In order to fix the problems for the neighborhoods we must evaluate what externally and internally is causing the problems.

External problem

Not the only one but most significantly is Prairie City. They built a 118ft (We found the documentation once, I can’t remember if that number is accurate of the top of my head) wide 6 lane road, Prairie City that funnels into a 22 to 23ft wide residential street in the Historic District without restricting the flow of traffic that goes that direction. Matter of fact that flow is actually encouraged. Prairie City only has one very short turn lane that turns from it to the next main arterial Blue Ravine. It has two lanes of through traffic heading right for our neighborhood. If you take the time to sit down there, you can watch 4,5,6 maybe 8 vehicles turning off of Prairie City to use Blue Ravine and the other two thru lanes stacked up 25 cars deep each, heading right for us. Then once they get through that and reach the Glenn intersection, one lane goes straight heading for us and one turns down the next arterial Glenn at the 4 way stop. So of course they stack up side by side and one goes straight heading for us and one turns left down Glenn (again entirely under utilizing the arterial, Not looking at Folsom Blvd but Glenn itself, a 4 lane arterial is being under utilized). Then when they get to this side of the neighborhoods they exit Bidwell, continue on Sibley to exit Natoma or they use Persifer or Bidwell to access Reading, Wool and Decatur to use them to Natoma. Then you add in Lembi with no volume controls at either end that allows the continuous access back in fourth from Sibley and Riley causing problems for them and additional traffic added to our already existing traffic. These traffic patterns are not only one way they are used in reverse.

If the light is done properly, it can have more than a serious impact in helping Sibley/Wool/Decatur/Persifer and Reading and maybe Lembi (not sure about Lembi) 24/7. The original planned light did not include the idea of using it to control the traffic into the neighborhood.

Widening of Sibley between Blue Ravine and Glenn to 4 lanes – was already planned and is in the works.

The widening of the short section of Glenn that is two lanes between Sibley and Folsom Blvd. – already planned and in the works.

Making two left hand turns off of Sibley on to Glenn with a separate shortened timed light for through traffic. Was not planned but re-evaluated.

Making two left hands turns from Prairie City onto Blue Ravine so Blue Ravine can better be utilized. Was not planned and is being re-evaluated.

Internal problem

Not the only but the most significant of the internal problems is the section of Sibley between Lembi and Bidwell. This is the section that most, not all, but most of these people using Lembi, Reading, Decatur, Wool,(Decatur and Wool recieve traffic from this but thier biggest problem I think is Riley/Bidwell cutting through) Persifer and Sibley (the section of Sibley in the actual Historic District between Natoma and Bidwell) and Sibley (the section between Glenn and Lembi) are trying to get to and from. It is the actual instigator for the internal design problems of these neighborhoods that is causing this to happen to us. Very confusing, I know what I'm trying to explain but it would be easier with a map.

By removing the short cut through this section during the most congested point of the day they are using it, you have now reduced the bumper to bumper traffic which causes a reduction on all above mentioned residential streets. This is the theory behind it and why we wanted to actually try it and see if it works the way it looks like it should work on paper. I'm sure we have all experienced that, something that looks like it should work but something happens unforeseen, That is why it must have a trial before being scrapped or made permanent, especially when you are trying to work with Human behavior.

If we are allowed to keep the internal fix that at this time, after trying it has provided a powerful reduction to the problems and goes a long way to protecting this area during the time that it is most adversely effected, I can assure you, as I have been told that the necessity of the internal fix would be re-evaluated once the External fixes are completed. However, the stop light at that intersection is not the only external fix needed. It would need to control the volume at the Glenn/Sibley intersection (and a whole lot of trust by the residents that the city will continue the volume control timing of the light and not change it to shove traffic up our ______ again), controlled volume at Lembi (the no left hand turn in place) and controlled volume at Bidwell (no left hand turns in place). I’m sure that I have missed a lot because I cannot cram over a years research I have done on this or all of our meetings we have had with the city into this, but I believe I addressed the most significant info.

Traffic Calming is always evolving as development happens and populations grow. What works to obtain the objective now, is not necessarily what will work in the future, it must be re-evaluated when necessary. However, the objective is still the same to provide safe, not cul de sac existence, but reasonably safe neighborhoods with the focus being on peoples quality of life that does not only benefit them but benefits society as a whole. The psychology that plays into a persons well being in there home and how it effects society is amazing. That is why city after city is trying to do their part in protecting that.

[Orangetj]

Just a very short note - I've noticed a dramatic improvement in traffic conditions this week on both Sibley and Lembi. I assume this means that people are starting to "get it" that Sibley is blocked off at Lembi from 4-7. There seem to be far fewer people doing u-turns at the closure and far fewer people coming down Lembi with the intent to turn right on Sibley during these times. Good stuff.

[angel3]

As owner of this school, we welcome people letting us know if a driver has been speeding. But gossip is so dangerous because you may know all the facts. We had our vans serviced and found out that the service tech was speeding around to test the transmission.

Secondly, Please call us is that happens so that employee can be Rreprimanded or fired. It is not our policy to speed.

[Pacoloco]

Great posts today people. If only there were more residents like us brainstorming / suggesting / implementing ideas such as I've read today regarding neighborhood traffic. Then maybe there would be less complaints and more resolutions.

As stated before, there are already plans to install stop lights and stop signs within the affected neighborhoods. The worst part is waiting until they are installed. Latest plans for the stop light I heard was early summer, but I doubt that and most likely it will be late summer / early fall. And of course it would only work if the streets are widened as previously stated. Problem is, what to do about the traffic during those 6 months . . . A times street closure maybe?

[Terry]

QUOTE (angel3 @ May 13 2004, 03:05 PM)

As owner of this school, we welcome people letting us know if a driver has been speeding.  But gossip is so dangerous because you may know all the facts.  We had our vans serviced and found out that the service tech was speeding around to test the transmission. Secondly, Please call us is that happens so that employee can be Rreprimanded or fired.  It is not our policy to speed.

I personally have called/come in 3 times to report your employees speeding (on two occasions in your daycare vans) and on the third occasion, one of your employees driving what I think is her own vehicle, a green van with personalized plates, who was speeding and driving in the bike lanes on Lembi.

The two times I saw your daycare vans speeding down Sibley and then on Bidwell, both were driven by 20-something females, so if your transmission service tech fits that description, I apologize for spreading "gossip".

[Sibley Resident]

Angel3,

I see this is your first post, Thank you for joining the discussion on this thread.

I have no doubt that you are as frustrated about everything that is going on as many of the residents are here. I understand your frustrations are probably very different from ours but I do welcome and encourage your input.

Unfortunately, this process has not been perfect, but since the city has had very little need for traffic calming until the last few years, it is not surprising that there is going to be a significant learning curve for everyone.

[Lembi Resident]

Regarding stop signs on Lembi:

About a year ago, I also thought that additional stop signs on Lembi might help resolve the speed issue. After all, wouldn't drivers at least need to slow down, if not come to a complete stop, at each intersection? And stop signs are relatively inexpensive and quick to install. However, during meetings with the city, the traffic engineers repeatedly instructed our citizen's group that stop signs are not accepted or effective speed control measures.

Not fully understanding why stop signs would not help, I began to do research on traffic calming. In one reputable source after another, I read why stop signs are not effective in reducing speed. There is ample empirical data to support this statement. In a nutshell, there are two main reasons:

1) When stop signs are installed to attempt to control speed rather than to address traffic flow issues, drivers tend to increase speed immediately after the sign, attempting to compensate for lost time. This is evidenced by 85th percentile speeds which are higher AFTER the installation of the stop sign.

Additionally, there is the problem with increased noise, as drivers accelerate after the stop sign. Living close to the existing stop sign on Lembi at Oxborough, I daily experience the uphill acceleration noise from those drivers who are irritated by the stop sign, and use race car speeds in reaction to the inconvenience of stopping.

2) When cities post numerous unnecessary stop signs as attempts at speed control, there is a general devaluation of the sign in the immediate and surrounding areas. In other words, there is a tendency for more drivers to ignore the stop signs. This can be particularly problematic at intersections that do merit stop signs for traffic flow reasons.

While Lembi undoubtedly needs speed control measures, I do not think stop signs are the answer. I have discussed this with a number of the committee members, including Sibley Resident. We generally agree that the City's traffic engineers were right! Unfortunately the painted stripes and bicycle lane, another low-cost measure, were not successful. Lembi may require some structural changes to adequately resolve the speed problem.

[Sibley Resident]

Lembi Resident

QUOTE

We generally agree that the City's traffic engineers were right!

"Generally" needed to be bolded!!!!

[jagayman]

Anyone know if there are any plans to alleviate the turns onto Glenn from the neighborhood streets between Sibley and Riley?

I live on Vierra Circle and during particular times of the day, it is difficult to turn West (having to wait for traffic to clear from both directions) with the blind turn and speeders coming from the East.

The more Glenn becomes an alternative throughway, the worse, I believe, this will become.

-jason.

[Sibley Resident]

QUOTE

The more Glenn becomes an alternative throughway, the worse, I believe, this will become.

Alternative throughway, instead of what? Glenn is a major main arterial for the city. There is every intention of more and more people using it. The city has made and is continuing to make changes to Glenn, improving it to make it more attractive for people to use.

I agree whole-heartedly that as development continues and the population in the city and surrounding cities grow, we will over time certainly have significantly more traffic on Glenn. I'm not sure exactly were you are located? Is that on the south side of Glenn, or what I would consider the south side? the opposite side of Glenn from Cobble Ridge, Whiting Way etc...

If you believe there is a problem or will be a problem, I would highly suggest that as soon as you can, get active in the process and talk with the city about what their plans are for that area now and in the future. I personally am not aware of anything.

By the way, I thought your previous posts were great. Thanks for lightening up the mood. You made me laugh!

[Orangetj]

QUOTE (Lembi Resident @ May 13 2004, 04:12 PM)

While Lembi undoubtedly needs speed control measures, I do not think stop signs are the answer. I have discussed this with a number of the committee members, including Sibley Resident. We generally agree that the City's traffic engineers were right! Unfortunately the painted stripes and bicycle lane, another low-cost measure, were not successful. Lembi may require some structural changes to adequately resolve the speed problem.

If stop signs won't help, I wonder what would? I guess I am highly skeptical that the city will/can spend the money it would take to change the physical structure of Lembi Drive and it would seem that any other traffic calming measures (traffic circles, speed humps, etc.) would have the same impact as stop signs - i.e. irritating drivers and making them drive faster between obstacles. Short of controlling access to the neighborhood, which I can't imagine would be met with much public favor, what CAN be done to control speeds on Lembi?

[john]

there are lots of traffic calming measures available for Lembi, see http://www.trafficcalming.org

[Sibley Resident]

Lembi explained the Stop Signs so I wanted to explain what I knew about Speed Humps.

I originally started doing my research when over a year ago, I went to the city and had asked for the installation of a stop sign at the only section on Sibley that didn’t have one and asked for Speed Humps because Sibley has long stretches without intersections. I asked for these things to control speeds. At that time the volume was not as bad so I was focused on the speeds. The city had told me no, on the stop sign because it is not used for speed controls. I was also told no on the speed humps because the city has a moratorium on them. I started researching to find out why I couldn't have them. What was the problem on stop signs and why would the city have a moratorium on Speed Humps.

After doing the research myself to find out why they told me no, I must agree with them on the Stop signs. Research after research shows that in a few cases they provided very little reduction, but in more cases than not the speeds in sections of the road actually increase because of Human behavior, They have to make up for the time they lost. You might provide a reduction in one area of the street but you make them worse for other sections.

Speed Humps on the other hand are used for speed controls and done properly can be very effective in reducing speeds. Many cities when they first started putting them in had difficulties with them because there is an exact science behind Height, Width and distance apart that must be perfected in order for them to work (partly to preventing the speed ups in between). These are extremely controversial and some cities love them and are putting more and more in. Some cities hate them and are now going through the cost of removing them.

Advantages:
1. Speed Humps are relatively inexpensive;
2. They are relatively easy for bicycles to cross if designed appropriately
3. They are very effective in slowing travel speeds.
4. studies indicate that traffic volumes may have a minor reduction in cut through traffic depending on alternative routes available

5. Some collision reduction

Disadvantages:
1. They cause a "rough ride" for all drivers, and can cause severe pain for people with certain skeletal disabilities;

2. They force large vehicles, such as emergency vehicles and those with rigid suspensions, to travel at slower speeds; Increasing Emergency response time and some cases damage to the under carriage of there vehicles
3. They may increase noise and air pollution
4. People really hate the aesthetics of them.
5. Traffic diversion to adjacent routes

I'm sure I missed a few. To be honest with you I personally do not know how I feel about them, there are certainly benefits, but there are certainly drawbacks.

As stated above the city currently has a moratorium on them. As in every case you have some that are for and some against. City Emergency Response is certainly against them and will continue to fight against them being allowed in this city. I don’t believe the money was really the question for city staff (it might be a part of it but I personally just did not get that impression) it was the opposition by the City Emergency Response Departments that seems to be more of the issue.

There are many more types of traffic calming measures but they cost more money and may or may not be appropriate for a certain streets, because of what they need in order to make them work, the street might not be able to provide.
A few are: Traffic Circles, Chicanes (bends or deviations), Neckdowns (Chokers, bulbs), Narrowing of road (actual structural change), Raised Intersections, Directional Changes, Gateways etc…