165 replies to this topic

[camay2327]

Can anyone in the know tell me why it was a trial in front of a judge instead of a trial by jury???

Would he have to be tried as an adult if he had a jury trial???


Just wondering...

[Steve Heard]

Dis and Jr

I am fully aware of the unfair double standard with regards to the behaviors of men vs women in today's society. I am also fully aware of teen sexuality and teen sexual mores.

Still, if the girl was forced to have sex against her will, regardless of whether or not she went willingly into the restroom, and regardless of whether or not she jumped up on the toilet, appeared upset, reported it, it is still rape.

Many people think of rape as a violent attack by a stranger. It can be, but is most often done by someone known to the victim, and usually when the rapist has coerced, happened or persuaded the victim to be alone with him, so he can take advantage of the opportunity.

The blackbelt argument is worthless to me.

Karate ranks and belts are handed out like candy in most schools, as they are most often motivated by keeping students (and keeping the cash flowing) than having quality blackbelts come out of the school.

The karate expert may have explained what kind of physical and mental fitness one must have in order to earn a black belt, but that does not mean that she possesses those qualities.

I have seen many blackbelts who didn't deserve them, but were promoted because they had put in the time, or spent the money, or were going to quit, or because the teacher needed someone to teach classes for him/her.

In the 32 years history of the karate school I've trained with for the past nearly 14 years, we have never ever promoted a child to the level of blackbelt. They just don't have the maturity for it.

Besides, this wasn't a square off between two people, with the winner committing rape. This was the case of two kids fooling around in a bathroom stall and the boy taking it too far.

Cal, I believe that in most court systems, only adults are given the choice of trial by judge or jury. Children usually face only a judge.

[bordercolliefan]

I think the confusion regarding the definition of rape often occurs in a situation like this:

The man wants to have sex. The woman initially says, "No." The man then attempts to persuade her: "Oh, come on... it will feel good... just this once... don't be a prude..." or whatever he thinks are the most promising lines to use.

At some point, whether out of fear, embarassment, or just plain exasperation, the woman stops stating, "No, I don't want to." She does not scream, resist, or attempt escape. The man, encountering no resistance (though in all likelihood the woman's body language shows this is not what she wants to be doing), proceeds. He probably feels that by no longer saying "No," and not resisting, she has acquiesced (having been persuaded by all his great lines!). He may believe the old saw that good girls always say "No" at first, and need to be persuaded.

Now, has a rape occurred, or not?

I think we can all agree that as a matter of simple human respect, the man should not proceed when the woman has made clear at the outset that this is not an activity she wishes to engage in. On the other hand, I think that a woman has some responsibility to know her own mind, and not be coerced, persuaded, or browbeaten into something that she does not want to do. In other words, it's not enough to say "No" at the outset and then become a passive, though reluctant, participant. You need to keep saying "No."

Men-- if you are inclined to call this rape -- then think about whether you have ever tried to persuade a woman to have sex when she initially didn't want to or appeared reluctant.

[FolsomJunior00]

Steve, you are pretty much taking every piece of evidence that isnt for the victim and trying to find ways to throw it out the window

here is a fact: She was a blackbelt, and, even if was "handed to her like candy" she still was probably in karate for about a year and a half, or even more. Remember, you got to get all those stripes and stuff like that

Fact is, she had experience in self defense, something she could have used to her advantage when she wanted the boy to stop, but she never used it. If she did, i dont think many people would have a problem sending this boy to jail. But she didnt, thats the point

Why didnt she scream for help as the kids walked in? It may be because she was still willing when the students walked in to see her climb on the toliet. But with 4 kids coming in one after another, and then after the fourth kid them getting caught? Highly unlikely.

What about the dad who called the school saying the girl admitted to him that it was consenual? I see no reason for the principal or vice principal to lie about that, unless they receieved some big bucks from the guilty party, but i think we can agree that it was not the case.

How bout another point that wasnt brought up? This kid who raped her is a very, very, very small kid. My sibling, a freshman at FHS, knows everyone who was involved, and she told me this boy is a small kid, about 80 pounds or so. I see no reason for my sister to lie, so lets take that as fact, shall we? Well, the rape victim, knew the boy, correct, and im sure she would have known that he was very small for his age. You would think he would have kicked his butt right then and there, or at least struggled fiercely when she wanted the boy to stop. Nope, she didnt.

Please note by the way im reffering to the point when she wanted the boy to stop, not when it was consensual.


By law, he was convicted, and im sure the court held no bias feelings toward either side, so i feel the judge made his best judgement. I just think there is OVERWHELMING evidence that casts doubt, which is what our judicial system is based on. Therefore, the boy shouldnt have been convicted.

Steve, i just want you to see the evidence at hand. If you have your opinion on this evidence, feel free to share. I want to hear your take on this evidence i have presented as well as other evidence.

[Steve Heard]

JR

It's not that I want to cast doubt on all of the contrary evidence. It's that despite the conviction, the victim is still considered a liar.

All women who report rapes are asked what they did to provoke or prevent it.

If one is robbed, no one asks, 'Did you scream? Did you try to escape? If not, it wasn't robbery.'

I don't know where you get your info about the size of the assailant. He was described in something I read, I don't recall if it was on myfolsom, or in the paper, that she is 5'3 and 110lbs, and he is 5'11" and 150.

Again, understanding that rape doesn't always mean a violent stranger attack, I can imagine the girl hopping up on the toilet because she knew she wasn't supposed to be in there.

She obviously had some like for this guy in order to go with him and start fooling around in the first place.

It gets to me when when witnesses come forward and claim that the rapist assaulted or attempted to assualt them, when it is revealed that the rapist uses sex to 'relieve' himself, that he abuses drugs and alcohol, that he has family problems, when he admits that he tricked the girl into going in there by telling her he was sick, and then when he is busted, so many come to his aide, claiming he was innocent.

Let's hope and pray that justice was done, and that all of us learn a valuable lesson here, so it won't happen to us or anyone else we know.

[FolsomJunior00]

By no means am I calling the girl a liar, im just pointing out some evidence that heavily contradict the verdict.

Im trying to point out that there was a lot of reasonable doubt in the case that should have gotten a "not guilty" plea. Now, "not guilty" does not mean "innocent." "Not guilty" means that there was doubt in the prosecutions presentation of the case. Now, with al this reasonable doubt in the case, shouldnt the boy have gotten a "not guilty" verdict? I think so, if we hold the same standards of judicial trials to minors as we do to adults (as we should, by the way). But, it may just be a matter of opinion on what was reasonable doubt or not.

I as well pray that justice was done in this case, because if it wasnt, a kid is, in a sense, behind bars until 25, for no good reason.

[anonymous]

I was raped when I was in college. I knew the guy, but it was not a date. I had never been with a man before. It was not consensual. It was violent and degrading.

I was too humiliated and scared to tell my parents. The rapist told me that if I called the police it would be his word against mine. I believed him.

All these years I have worried and felt guilty about not reporting it.

Now reading this discussion I see that maybe the rapist was right. I might not have been believed. I might have been tried in the court of public opinion.

Maybe I did the right thing by keeping quiet and preventing myself further pain.

Who is really on trial in a rape case?

[dude0069]

all right listen up i knew the guy whos gettin blamed for this BS i didnt know him like a best friend but i knew him well enough to know that he would never do that kind of thing, and at our high school, all of the girls are extremely,... well.... bitchy, sorry for the term, but its true, and most girls today know that they can get away with blaming someone for raping them just because almost everyone looks at teenage boys as criminals, gangsters, or otherwise bad people. he never raped anyone, the girls just want attention, and his life shoudlt be ruined by their lies. thank you

[Steve Heard]

Anonymous

I am so sorry to hear about what happened to you. It is obvious that after all this time, you are still paying for it, while the rapist enjoys life, and has perhaps victimized others.

It is also interesting to note that the post following yours from 'dude0069' ( I wonder what that name means?) claims that he knows that all 1400 of the girls at Folsom High are 'bitchy' and know they can 'get away with blaming someone for raping them'.

I don't blame you for keeping quiet. Look at how victims are treated in our town in 2004.

It is shameful.

[FolsomJunior00]

steve, once again, you cnt accept that maybe the girl was lying

Im sorry for what happened to anonomous (sp) but it was a diff situation then the FHS case

[Ahnold]

I echo your previous point Steve. I said the same thing earlier in this post. What the heck does it take for people to accept that a woman says that she has been raped? Does she have to be killed, bloodied or emerge with her clothes in tatters? No other victim of a major crime is subjected to this level of scrutiny, are they?

[disenchanted]

It truly is progress that men like Steve and Aahnald are so pro victim/women and have obviously taken the time to consider women's issues and the issue of rape altogether. Times have definitely changed in general for the better for women in this country.

With regard to the FHS situation, having presented information in my earlier posts about defense evidence shown in the courtroom that cast huge doubt on the guilt of the boy, what would have it taken to convince the Judge or others on this thread that perhaps the girls lied?

Would it have taken a witness who actually opened the stall door and saw an act of consensual sex going on as opposed to five boys who simply all assumed what they saw was consensual sex because of watching a girl who obviously didn't want to be seen jump on a toilet? Who never once made a peep? All this over a 12-15 minute time span?

Comparing all sexual assault victims to robbery or other types of crimes is comparing apples to oranges. There are real motives for SOME females to lie such as having an alibi for inappropriate sexual activity, for gaining attention, ect. Haven't we read of other types of crime victims faking kidnappings? Haven't we heard of females later recanting their stories of sexual assault? I recently read an article about four 13 year old girls in Southern California who broke their curfew and to avoid the wrath of their parents claimed a homeless man in a park had sexually assaulted them. He was convicted and spent eight months in jail before they recanted. IT HAPPENS.

Steve, if you had read that any of the girls involved in this case had used drugs or alcohol and/or had come from homes where their parents had experienced maritial issues would you be so quick to condemn thiem as liars? You read that the boy had been having sex at 15 years of age "to relieve stress" and have convicted him ipartly based on that. If you had any knowledge of the girls prior sexual activities would that change your opinion of them?- How fortunate you are to live such a wholesome life that you or no one around you has ever made any such mistakes or experienced any of these common problems. I want your life.

It is obvious in this thread that people are so polarized one way or the other of this boy's guilt based on their attitudes about the crime of rape and whether or not anyone they know has been assaulted. We all agree that rape is terrible and victims should be supported and justice served. I hope we all agree that each case is different and should be decided based on the evidence and facts. I wonder if anyone has thought about what chance they might stand in our current system if they were accused falsely. A friend of mine who was a Physical Therapist was falsely accused of sexual misconduct by a patient. This man is an upstanding citizen with a beautiful wife and two children. He lost his license and was sued by the "victim". Another man I know who is a Police Officer had his wife leave him for another man. They had a thriving business and two young daughters. After she took the girls and moved in with her new boyfriend, she accused him of molesting his two young girls. How convenient - she was awarded sole custody and took every penny. He is almost finished serving his five year sentence. There was absolutely no evidence presented at his trial, it was his word against hers.

We rarely get to hear this stuff do we? Why? It doesn't sell newspapers and it's the "it could never happen to me" syndrome.

It can and does happen. I stand by my assertion that a grave injustice occured based on what I heard in that courtroom rather than a politically correct idealogy.

[FolsomJunior00]

QUOTE (Ahnold @ Jun 27 2004, 05:10 AM)

I echo your previous point Steve. I said the same thing earlier in this post. What the heck does it take for people to accept that a woman says that she has been raped? Does she have to be killed, bloodied or emerge with her clothes in tatters? No other victim of a major crime is subjected to this level of scrutiny, are they?

Well if there is evidence that says she wasnt raped, and merely just had consensual sex, then why cant we voice our opinion? Is that a crime? Only in America....

[FolsomJunior00]

disenchanted, another great post. You are right, we are polarized to either side on the issue, including myself, but i just find it hard to believe that it was rape because of the evidence that is fact now

Im not a non-feminist pig who thinks women should stay in the kitchen for the rest of their lives. No, i support women's rights to the fullest. But i look at facts and evidence and i draw a conclusion. Did the boy rape the girl? By definition of law, probably yes, but is this situation that it occured in right? Not in my opinion.

And disenchanted, i love how you brought up the fact of the girl's sexual history. Like i said in a post in this topic long ago (just go back) I said my sister knew the girl, while she was dating this boy. Apparently the "victim" was jealous that my sister was dating this boy, because she liked the boy herself. Now, the boy said that he didnt want to go out with the girl because she was "too aggressive." When i asked him to elaborate further he said something along the lines of "she just wanted to do stuff with me, you know, that i didnt want to do." Of course, in teenage lingo I knew what he was talking about.

Ya, you are probably thinking that what i just said is BS and all that. Whatever, its one of the many reasons i came to my conclusion. Take it for what its worth.

[bordercolliefan]

Disenchanted,

One thing you haven't focused on is the fact that the boy used a ruse (i.e., pretending he was sick) to get the girl to go into the bathroom. This looks very bad for him. It shows pre-meditation in that he came up with a scheme to lure her into the bathroom. Perhaps even more important, it shows that the boy knew that if he told the girl the truth ("Hey, let's sneak off someplace where we can fool around together"), the girl would have refused. So, he must have KNOWN (or at least suspected) she did not want to have sex with him -- and he figured the only way to make it happen was to trick her into the bathroom.

You have to admit that this does not look good for him.

The other point you haven't addressed is that apparently this girl had previously complained to a teacher that this boy was bothering her.

Taken together, this does paint a picture of an aggressive boy who won't take no for an answer.