188 replies to this topic

[bordercolliefan]

Bill Z,

Combining your views that profit is morally correct and the government should not interfere in health care, I suppose you think a single mom kidney donor -- perhaps driven by job loss or mounting medical bills -- should be able to sell a liver or kidney to the highest bidder? And I suppose it's also fine with you if an 80 year old alcoholic millionaire bypasses all the sick kids on the organ waiting list, and takes a kidney that he'll use for just a couple years before kicking the bucket from something else?

[Bill Z]

Bill Z,

Combining your views that profit is morally correct and the government should not interfere in health care, I suppose you think a single mom kidney donor -- perhaps driven by job loss or mounting medical bills -- should be able to sell a liver or kidney to the highest bidder? And I suppose it's also fine with you if an 80 year old alcoholic millionaire bypasses all the sick kids on the organ waiting list, and takes a kidney that he'll use for just a couple years before kicking the bucket from something else?

For reasons that you have not mentioned, yes i do believe anyone should be able to sell any body part they want to the highest bidder.

I have very strong feelings about each and every person has sole dominion over their body. As a result, I feel prostitution should be perfectly legal, suicide should be perfectly legal, selling one's own organs should be perfectly legal.

To outlaw any and/or all of the above is a form of slavery in my mind. Do deny a person the right to decide what they want or do not want to do with their body is taking away their rights to have sole dominion over their body.

Once you decide the government or someone else can decide what you can or can not do with your own body parts, what happens when it's decided that someone needs a kidney and now we are going to take yours from you to give to this other person. The government has decided they can take my money from me to give to someone else. The government has unconstituionally decided they can confiscate my property under asset forfeiture laws and sell my property so the money can be added to the General Fund. How long before they decide when they can take my body parts. They have decided I don't have the right to sell them. Can you tell me any good reason why I shouldn't be able to sell my big toe to the highest bidder? Can you provide any justification why people shouldn't have sole dominion over their own bodies? What gives anyone the right to tell me what I can or can not do with my own life (as long as I am not infringing upon anyone else's rights).

As for the old geezer vs. the young kids, who the heck should have the right to decide who's life is more valuable than anothers. There is only one person that has that right in my book and that is everyone has the right to decide if someone else's life is more important than their own. You don't have the right to tell me my life is worth less than your daughters. You can decide your life might be worht less than hers, but you can't decide mine is worth less. The same goes for me, I can decide that I want my son to live instead of me, but I don't have the right to say you must die to save my son's life.

[Bill Z]

If other nations are so ahead of the USA in healthcare because of their socialized or single payer systems, how come when it comes to organ transplants per million people of population, the USA far outnumbers the rest of the world. how many more lives have been saved by organ transplants in America than the rest of the world

Transplantation of organs in different continents/regions year/ 2000

Kidney Liver Heart

USA 52 19 8
Europe 27 10 4
Turkey 11 3.5 1
Asia 3 0.3 0.03
Latin America 13 1.6 0.5

All numbers per million population

Info from wiki

[bordercolliefan]

Regarding the statistics you cite: I don't think we have enough informtion to interpret them. For example, does "Europe" include extremely poor countries like Albania? Greece? I'd be more interested in a direct comparison between the U.S. and, say, France, the U.K., or Switzerland. Also, while I'm a huge proponent of organ transplant, I would like to know how successful the U.S. operations are. Maybe some organs are transplanted into patients who are destined not to live very long anyway. If so, I would favor withholding this extraordinary care that may eke out a few more months of life in favor of basic care for more people. I just don't know enough about how organ transplants work in this or other countries.

Regarding the first issue: one thought is we need to clarify something being moral versus something being legal. Maybe you agree with me it would be immoral to sell your organ to a rich 80 year-old alcoholic instead of giving it to a sick child who would pay much less... but you still don't feel the law should outlaw it. I don't know.

I do agree with you to some degree about dominion over one's body. Having seen so much suffering and lack of dignity among the elderly, I firmly believe that each of us should be able to choose the time of our deaths, and should have easy access to drugs that would make the process painless, quick, and sure. (Though even here, I would support some regulation -- such as requiring a letter from a physician that the individual has made a reasoned decision, has ailments that cannot be cured, etc.)

[SmartMoney]

That's about the long and short of it......sick, real, real sick! World gone insane!

I know.

I can't wait for this whole thing to explode once the real costs of this come to the surface. Then, once again, the Repubs will have to come to the rescue and repeal alot of this garbage and get things back on track. There's nothing worse than having to clean-up someone else's mess.

If the Dems hadn't been so over-the-top-partisan, alot of the coming disaster could have been avoided. But all they cared about was winning....at all costs!! What a destructive Party they are.

[bordercolliefan]

. There's nothing worse than having to clean-up someone else's mess.

Okay, that one made me spit out my tea!

The party of George W "Mission Accomplished!" "Regulate what Financial Markets?" Bush is talking about cleaning up someone else's mess?????

Are we in a George Orwell novel??

[bordercolliefan]

. There's nothing worse than having to clean-up someone else's mess.

Okay, that one made me spit out my tea!

The party of George W "Mission Accomplished!" "Regulate what Financial Markets?" Bush is talking about cleaning up someone else's mess?????

Are we in a George Orwell novel??

[bordercolliefan]

. There's nothing worse than having to clean-up someone else's mess.

Okay, that one made me spit out my tea!

The party of George W "Mission Accomplished!" "Regulate what Financial Markets?" Bush is talking about cleaning up someone else's mess?????

Are we in a George Orwell novel??

[Bill Z]

Regarding the first issue: one thought is we need to clarify something being moral versus something being legal. Maybe you agree with me it would be immoral to sell your organ to a rich 80 year-old alcoholic instead of giving it to a sick child who would pay much less... but you still don't feel the law should outlaw it. I don't know.

What if the 80 year old alcoholic is my Dad and the young child is the offspring of the CEO that laid off my father to transfer the job to India and that is what turned my Dad into an alcoholic? Where then does your moral compass point. While the young child may tug at my heart strings, I don't feel it is immoral to decide it's not my responsibility to sacrifice financial gains for my family to rescue someone else's child that is suffering and I had nothing to do with the causes of that suffering. I can't single handedly save the world from it self. I'll voluntarily help when the help doesn't cause me too much discomfort/inconvenience, but my primary objective will always be those that are near & dear to my heart. Making sure I can afford to put my son through a good college is more important to me than helping the untold millions that don't have it as good as I do. I'm sorry others aren't born into an existence as good as what I have, but that isn't my fault and it isn't my responsibility to change it.

[Bill Z]

I do agree with you to some degree about dominion over one's body. Having seen so much suffering and lack of dignity among the elderly, I firmly believe that each of us should be able to choose the time of our deaths, and should have easy access to drugs that would make the process painless, quick, and sure. (Though even here, I would support some regulation -- such as requiring a letter from a physician that the individual has made a reasoned decision, has ailments that cannot be cured, etc.)

In what ways do you disagree with me about having sole dominion over my own body? You said you agree with me to "some degree", I'm curious why you don't agree with me 100%. Please explain how you justify someone else deciding what happens to my body. For me it is an all or nothing idea. It's like, you can't be a "little bit pregnant", you either are or you aren't. Sole dominion is sole dominion, take away a little bit, and you are now enslaved, you no longer have sole dominion.

[SmartMoney]

but our current system is horribly broken and something's got to be done.

Horribly broken, no. Horribly broken is an overstatement, and you know it. Horribly broken means you wait for weeks to get urgent care.

Quit exaggerating...it undermines your argument bigtime.

[bordercolliefan]

Bill Z, you raise good points about our obligations to strangers versus family. A philosopher, Peter Singer I think, has done some work trying to explain how it is morally right to prefer our own family or community to those distant from us (which is an intuition we all share -- otherwise we would all impoverish ourselves to lift starving Africans out of poverty)... It's a bit of a puzzle. There is definitely an evolutionary advantage, I would think, to favoring one's family so maybe this provides evidence that morality has an evolutionary basis.

About dominion over our bodies, I think I agree with legal restrictions on selling organs. I do find it morally repugnant to think of desperate people feeling compelled to sell off body parts to support their families. As you know my sister hasn't been able to find a job with benefits... should she start selling organs so she doesn't become a "burden" on society? While not forcing anyone, maybe we could also gently suggest that it's a noble option, rather than being a parasite on the welfare system, to simply kill youself.

I guess I think we should maintain a principle that the human body has some dignity and sanctity, and is not just another widget in the marketplace.

[Bill Z]

Bill Z, you raise good points about our obligations to strangers versus family. A philosopher, Peter Singer I think, has done some work trying to explain how it is morally right to prefer our own family or community to those distant from us (which is an intuition we all share -- otherwise we would all impoverish ourselves to lift starving Africans out of poverty)... It's a bit of a puzzle. There is definitely an evolutionary advantage, I would think, to favoring one's family so maybe this provides evidence that morality has an evolutionary basis.

About dominion over our bodies, I think I agree with legal restrictions on selling organs. I do find it morally repugnant to think of desperate people feeling compelled to sell off body parts to support their families. As you know my sister hasn't been able to find a job with benefits... should she start selling organs so she doesn't become a "burden" on society? While not forcing anyone, maybe we could also gently suggest that it's a noble option, rather than being a parasite on the welfare system, to simply kill youself.

I guess I think we should maintain a principle that the human body has some dignity and sanctity, and is not just another widget in the marketplace.

Well, I'm not going to willy nilly start selling off my body parts to the highest bidder but I thoroughly detest the concept that anyone but me has a say in the matter.

As for legal restrictions on selling, I would prefer to change that to legal restrictions on the procurement side of the process. That is where I see the opportunity for corruption and abuse. No middleman allowed. Organ buyer can only purchase organs for themself or their spouse or offspring, no resellers allowed. I think it also reasonable to require a doctor to have prescribed the need for organ replacement prior to one being able to procure an organ or body part.

Here's one for ya, right now, I'm an able bodied person and I surely wouldn't want to go blind, but let's say, I'm now a quadraplegic, and my son needs a motorized heart or he will die, a rich man's daughter just lost her eyesight in a car accident, the rich man has offered to buy my eyes at a price that pays for the mechanical heart transplant for my son. Should I or shouldn't I be allowed to sell my eyes to save my son's life?