537 replies to this topic

[Cloud9]

Ha ha ha  no it doesn't. Good one though. Again, I am just on this side of not opposing it.

Well then, I hope you enjoyed the city council meeting on the matter and got your 3 minutes in.

[bordercolliefan]

http://www.ijtihad.o.....n Muslims.htm

Here is an interesting study of Muslims in the Detroit area. This was published in several major newspapers. The upshot of the article is that the majority of Muslims surveyed are doctrinally flexible and believe in participation in American politics, rather than alienation from it.

However, the article notes that 8% of the surveyed Muslims subscribe to the ultra-conservative brand of Muslim:

"According to the study, only 8 percent of mosque participants who filled out a questionnaire identified themselves as Salafi — extremely conservative and narrow-minded. These Muslims practice gender discrimination and segregation as divine law and believe all non-Muslims including Jews and Christians will go to heck unless they embrace Islam.

However, one must consider the possibility that many Salafi Muslims may not identify themselves, recognizing that in the post-September 11 environment it may be an invitation for unnecessary legal scrutiny. Salafi Muslims usually are also anti-American."

[bishmasterb]

"According to the study, only 8 percent of mosque participants who filled out a questionnaire identified themselves as Salafi — extremely conservative and narrow-minded.

Whew! At least we know 8% of Christians aren't extremely conservative and narrow-minded, what a relief!

[tgianco]

And just maybe a healthy dose of prejudice.

I had to reply to this. Everyone has some kind of prejudice, whether it be liberal/ conservative, gay/straight, christian/catholic/islam/agnostic. It's not to say that it is something to be proud of, but it's there in all of us.

Calling others prejudiced is purely hypocritical. There is not one person on these boards that is not a hypocrite by calling someone else prejudiced.

Plus, that's a pretty high and mighty position to take. I respect your opinions, but don't be so judgemental of others if they don't agree w/ yours (and we should all do likewise).

There are a lot of people on here that I disagree w/ a lot (including you), but we are probably more alike than different.

To answer a different thread, the flame wars (like this one) keep me away.

[bordercolliefan]

I had to reply to this. Everyone has some kind of prejudice, whether it be liberal/ conservative, gay/straight, christian/catholic/islam/agnostic. It's not to say that it is something to be proud of, but it's there in all of us.

Calling others prejudiced is purely hypocritical. There is not one person on these boards that is not a hypocrite by calling someone else prejudiced.

You are right, tgianco. In fact, as an example of unconscious prejudice, I just finished reading Malcolm Gladwell's "Blink." Some of you may know that Malcolm Gladwell is a fascinating gadfly/intellectual/writer, with credits that include the Wash. Post and The New Yorker. He happens to be half-black. In "Blink," he writes about how he took a psychological test that revealed -- seemingly going against everything he believes in -- that he harbors unconscious prejudices toward black people.

One of the most maddening aspects of prejudice is that our prejudices often have a grain of truth to them. I remember in the 1970's, visiting my grandmother in a deteriorating neighborhood in Washington, D.C. She used to walk to a neighborhood store behind her apartment complex. If, when she got downstairs, she saw a young black man loitering around the back of the apartments, she would go back inside and postpone her walk to the market. I complained to my Dad that "Grandma is prejudiced against black people." My Dad told me that she had been mugged on the way to the market 7 times, each time by a young black man. Yes, Grandma was prejudiced (clearly not every black man was a potential mugger) -- but her prejudice grew out of her own experience and instinct for self-preservation.

We are now facing something similar with Muslims. Our rational mind knows that 99% of American Muslims are peace-loving and pro-Democracy. It is also an indisputable fact that some small percentage of Muslims in America are sympathetic to terrorists and/or wish to harm us. The Lackawanna and Lodi arrests (not to mention the Intel guys) show that to be true beyond doubt. It is a struggle for all of us to act in accordance with our knowledge that most Muslims are not terrorists -- even though (just as with Malcolm Gladwell) our unconscious will keep reminding us of our fears and prejudices.

[TheCourtJester]

"Everyone's a little bit racist someti-i-imes.
Doesn't mean we go around commiting hate cri-i-imes!
Look around and you will find,
No-one's really colorblind.
Maybe it's a fact we all must fa-a-a-ace,
Everyone makes judgements...
Based on race."

"Well, not big judgments, like whether or not to buy the magazine from the black man. Yea, little judgements, like maybe the mexican busboy oughtta learn to speak G*****N ENGLISH!"

[bordercolliefan]

Yesterday the Sacramento Bee cited the following statistics:

6% of British Muslims thought the London bombings were "fully justified."

25% of British Muslims "sympathize" with the bombers.

20% of British Muslims feel "little or no loyalty toward Britain." (This certainly begs the question, why are they living there?)

The article states that these numbers attest to a "massive failure of assimilation" that is "inconceivable in the United States with its centuries of successful Americanization." Let's hope this assertion is correct...

The article also states that in the U.S., we do not tolerate the open preaching of jihad to the extent it was permitted in Britain. The article mentions an imam in Virginia who was recently jailed for just such incitement. (I don't remember this case... anyone??)

[bordercolliefan]

In fact, as an example of unconscious prejudice, I just finished reading Malcolm Gladwell's "Blink."  Some of you may know that Malcolm Gladwell is a fascinating gadfly/intellectual/writer, with credits that include the Wash. Post and The New Yorker.  He happens to be half-black.  In "Blink," he writes about how he took a psychological test that revealed -- seemingly going against everything he believes in -- that he harbors unconscious prejudices toward black people.

I should have included the second half of Malcolm Gladwell's point.

Gladwell writes that it is not surprising that the test revealed he had unconscious prejudices against black people, because the media bombards us with negative images of black people and positive images of white people. Like everyone else in our society, he had absorbed these messages even though it went against everything he (consciously) believed in.

Gladwell also writes that research using the same psychological test has shown that the only way to change someone's "prejudice score" is to expose them to positive experiences with the group they are biased against. If, before taking the test, subjects are shown positive images of black role models such as Martin Luther King, Bill Cosby, black doctors, etc., then their degree of unconscious prejudice is reduced.

So... maybe the takeaway is that to reduce our prejudices, what we need is more exposure to Muslims, not less. This would argue for greater integration of Muslims into our communities (thus avoiding the mistake that Britain made)... hence, a mosque in Folsom is potentially a good thing.

[Cloud9]

I'd love to believe that BCF. To some extent I'd say that integrated cities have a higher degree of tolerance, but much of the prejudice is still there, even amongst minority groups. Much of it just goes 'underground'.

My immediate thought when I read the following, is to wonder how many non-Muslims in Britain thought the same.

6% of British Muslims thought the London bombings were "fully justified."


Even in the aftermath of 9/11 there were plenty of red blooded Americans that blamed U.S. International Policy and believed we "deserved it" or "had it coming". I wonder what the results of a non-Muslim poll of Americans would find.

[bordercolliefan]

My immediate thought when I read the following, is to wonder how many non-Muslims in Britain thought the same. 

6% of British Muslims thought the London bombings were "fully justified."
Even in the aftermath of 9/11 there were plenty of red blooded Americans that blamed U.S. International Policy and believed we "deserved it" or "had it coming".  I wonder what the results of a non-Muslim poll of Americans would find.

There is a big difference between people thinking that American (or British) policies fomented terrorism-- meaning that terrorism was a foreseeable consequence of our policies-- and people believing that the slaughter of innocent men, women, and children is "fully justified."

If you found that even 1% of non-Muslim Britons or Americans think that mass murder of innocents is morally justified, I would be shocked. Indeed, can you identify a single American who has promoted this view?

[ngilbert]

There is a big difference between people thinking that American (or British) policies fomented terrorism-- meaning that terrorism was a foreseeable consequence of our policies-- and people believing that the slaughter of innocent men, women, and children is "fully justified." 

If you found that even 1% of non-Muslim Britons or Americans think that mass murder of innocents is morally justified, I would be shocked.  Indeed, can you identify a single American who has promoted this view?

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I do still occasionally hear some "red-blooded Americans" saying that what we need is another attack to "wake us up". It's usually mixed up in some blather about how decadant or complacent we are.

[bordercolliefan]

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I do still occasionally hear some "red-blooded Americans" saying that what we need is another attack to "wake us up". It's usually mixed up in some blather about how decadant or complacent we are.

I think that's almost the opposite of what Cloud9 and I are talking about. The people who say that are usually hawks who would use another murderous attack as an excuse to pump more money and more military efforts into the "War on terrorism."

Cloud9 is suggesting that there are numerous non-Muslim Americans who believe the 9/11 terrorists and the London bombers were "morally justified" in their actions -- i.e., that their actions were admirable. I find that notion highly dubious.

[ngilbert]

I think that's almost the opposite of what Cloud9 and I are talking about.  The people who say that are usually hawks who would use another murderous attack as an excuse to pump more money and more military efforts into the "War on terrorism." 

Cloud9 is suggesting that there are numerous non-Muslim Americans who believe the 9/11 terrorists and the London bombers were "morally justified" in their actions -- i.e., that their actions were admirable.  I find that notion highly dubious.

There may be some who think that I suppose, there's nuts in every box of candies, but I doubt you're going to get anyone in the US to really go on record as saying that. Not just because it's morally bankrupt to wish death upon innocent people, but because it's a sure way to get yourself on one watch list or another.

[bordercolliefan]

Right. I agree.

So then we are back to the original question, which is, "Wow, how scary is it that 6% of British Muslims [over 100,000 people] thought the London bombings were morally acceptable?"

Today's Sacramento Bee has another article on this very topic. They say that many European Muslims are completely alienated from and hostile to their adopted countries, with the young people becoming steadily more radicalized. I fear for those countries; I can't imagine there is an easy fix for such a disturbing trend.

[Cloud9]

Indeed, can you identify a single American who has promoted this view?

As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, I do know one American that was actually celebrating the fact that it happened in the privacy of their own home, while at the same time displaying an American flag on the outside of her home.

Publicly, if she were asked, she would make the same statements about how terrible, and awful a tragedy, but in private, amongst people she felt she could trust and/or discuss the subject, it was a different matter.

Last public statement blaming American policy for 9/11 that I can remember was by that professor that ended up getting thrown out of the college/university he was teaching. Don't recall his name, but he was in the news for a few days.

If there was a magical way to ask all non-Muslim Americans that question and know beyond a shadow of a doubt whether they were telling the truth (mass lie detector of some sort). It wouldn't surprise me to find 2-3% might feel that way.