379 replies to this topic

[mylo]

We can't pick and choose which public facilities or projects we will pay for based on our usage, but rather, the overall benefit to the area.

I bet if you look at the track record, more sports venues receive greater funding than arts and other entertainment facilities or projects. In one way, we do pick and choose, or let people like the Maloofs choose for us.

[Robert Giacometti]

Okay, all you opponents, let's set aside the rhetoric and the cliches for a minute and look at one single fact:

Fact: A 1/4 cent sales tax is not a hardship on anyone in America today.

Given that fact, plus the obvious benefits of an arena in the railyards, why do you oppose this measure?

Invalid answers include:
1. it being "bad for tax payers" since that doesn't explain anything
2. Traffic, since Pac Bell and other downtown facilities prove otherwise
3. Cuz I hate peope richer than me
4. Cuz I don't watch basketball
5. Because I drag my kids to soup kitchens instead of ice shows

Chad,

Its really simple and I thought you claiming to be a conservative would already understand.

Those of us who would be using the Arena....should pay for the cost of the Arena. Those who don't use the Arena shouldn't be paying for it!

The world is upside down...cats are chasing dogs....my liberal friends want to tax the poor to subsidize the wealthy and my conservative friends want to expand Government for their pleasure. My conservative friends want to raise taxes to give to Government without any accountability to give back to communities.

I sense you and others have allowed your passion and support for the Kings to affect your emotions more than your logic. If this were to raise taxes to build a world class building for something you didn't have the same passion for like you do for the Kings, I suspect you would be against it? Because this is something you would enjoy and would use you then try and rationalize doing it....contrary to you normal conservative philosophy.

This does however, dispell the myth that Conservatives aren't human!

[Chad Vander Veen]

Chad,

Its really simple and I thought you claiming to be a conservative would already understand.

Those of us who would be using the Arena....should pay for the cost of the Arena. Those who don't use the Arena shouldn't be paying for it!

The world is upside down...cats are chasing dogs....my liberal friends want to tax the poor to subsidize the wealthy and my conservative friends want to expand Government for their pleasure. My conservative friends want to raise taxes to give to Government without any accountability to give back to communities.

I sense you and others have allowed your passion and support for the Kings to affect your emotions more than your logic. If this were to raise taxes to build a world class building for something you didn't have the same passion for like you do for the Kings, I suspect you would be against it? Because this is something you would enjoy and would use you then try and rationalize doing it....contrary to you normal conservative philosophy.

This does however, dispell the myth that Conservatives aren't human!

Sorry Robert, I don't tow the conservative line on every issue. This has nothing to do with my passion for the Kings but instead has everything to do with my passion to see Sacramento become the great city it is destined to be.

I'm sorry you seem to be unconcerned with the parts of our region that extend beyond your property line.

[Robert Giacometti]

I have heard that argument before. I've heard it from peole who don't want to pay for highways because the don't drive on them, from people who don't want to pay for public schools because they don't have kids or because they send them to private schools, from people who don't want to pay for public art programs, parks, virtually anyone for any project or program.

We can't pick and choose which public facilities or projects we will pay for based on our usage, but rather, the overall benefit to the area.

Besides, it is estimated that the project could cost $500 million. If I'm doing my math correctly, and we put a $1 surcharge on every ticket, that would be roughly $17,000 a game. Divide that into $500 million, and it would take 29,411 games to earn enough to pay for the arena. With the Kings playing 40 game seasons, we're looking at 735 years. If we make it a $10 charge, we bring it down to 73 years.

Steve,

Roads, Schools and Parks are generally free to all citizens wether they choose to use them or not is up to the citizens! Historically, taxes have been used to pay for basic infrastructure.

Going to an Arena is costly and as you well know there are some who CAN NOT afford to do so, yet they will be forced to pay for something they can NOT use!

The tax on tickets could be for ALL users of the Arena....not just the Kings games. Also, since the downtown area would benefit from the redevolpment.... there could be an additional sales tax surcharge applied to a designed district to raise additional funds. Also, Hotel TOT taxes could be increased as they would gain additional room nights as a result of the Arena and these funds could be used to fund an Arena.

Also, those who are going to profit from using the Arena as home for their business....need to contribute MORE than what they are under this deal.

By doing it this way, those who CHOOSE to spend their money going to the Arena, dinner, hotels and entertainment, aren't subsidized by the poor!

[cw68]

Chad,

Its really simple and I thought you claiming to be a conservative would already understand.

Those of us who would be using the Arena....should pay for the cost of the Arena. Those who don't use the Arena shouldn't be paying for it!

The world is upside down...cats are chasing dogs....my liberal friends want to tax the poor to subsidize the wealthy and my conservative friends want to expand Government for their pleasure. My conservative friends want to raise taxes to give to Government without any accountability to give back to communities.

I sense you and others have allowed your passion and support for the Kings to affect your emotions more than your logic. If this were to raise taxes to build a world class building for something you didn't have the same passion for like you do for the Kings, I suspect you would be against it? Because this is something you would enjoy and would use you then try and rationalize doing it....contrary to you normal conservative philosophy.

This does however, dispell the myth that Conservatives aren't human!

I'm not a Kings fan and have only been to Arco one time to see The Eagles with tickets I got for free.

I'm for a new arena because of the economic and cultural stimulation it would bring to Sacramento, Sacramento County and the region. Sacramento and it's outlying areas -- Folsom included -- has so much potential but we have to shed the CowTown image.

[benning]

That's about all I see. Personally, I don't know if the money is best spent there or on other revitalization efforts. Perhaps we should build an Opera theater or something and say screw the Kings?

Exactly Mylo -- well maybe not an Opera theatre

- Proponents are saying
1) Only a sports franchise has the draw to create a vibrant urban center
2) It's such a small amount we shouldn't even worry about it.
3) Other cities did it and paid even more.

Why do people like the Maloofs get to strongarm a local government into squeezing pennies out of us? They can do this profitably all on their own or with a subsidy proportional to benefit.

I believe if it passes Sacramento downtown would improve but I don't think that justifies this level of government subsidy for a private enterprise

I'm an opponent of this even though I would gladly subsidize revitalization

As for CV's comments the only one that applies to my opinion is....

3. Cuz I hate peope richer than me

Actually I love people richer than me. More power and money to the Maloofs as long as they don't use public money to send their private profit margin into the stratosphere. This deal pencils out without any government subsidy. But why make a small profit when you can talk government leaders into giving you some of the public's money.

[benning]

Read this from the Sacramento Bee today. (People can spin these stories however they want to)

http://www.comcast.n...cvqh=itn_landis


Check this one too...
http://www.sacbee.co...-15089107c.html

Thanks for the links

This is what I mean. We need to be very skeptical and not just open our mouths to be spoonfed. Let's not proclaim this the best deal since sliced bread based on what we read in a regurgitated press release written by some flack. People who assume that the press release about the program itself will reveal all the demons in the details are being very simplistic.

We are and always will be considered a cow town by some. Get over it. The only thing that makes us bigger hicks is how quicly we're willing to swallow s--- without stopping to look at what it's really made of.

[DrKoz23]

Going to an Arena is costly and as you well know there are some who CAN NOT afford to do so, yet they will be forced to pay for something they can NOT use!

Robert... think of the following statement.

Going to COLLEGE is costly and as you well know there are some who CAN NOT afford to do so, yet they will be foreced to pay for something they can NOT use!

Sound familiar. I rest my case.

- Proponents are saying
1) Only a sports franchise has the draw to create a vibrant urban center

No... we are saying an arena draws NUMEROUS events to a downtown that is right now a disgrace. We are talking nearly 300 events per year. Drawing nearly 20,000 people each of those nights to the region.

If an arena isn't built... you can kiss the Kings goodbye. But you can also kiss goodbye to concerts... ice shows... monster truck rallies... a facility for graduations. This is more than an arena for the Kings... its wether or not we want a first class facility to enjoy all of these events.

Arco Arena will be torn down... either way on this vote. The land is too valuable. Do we want to invest in a positive future for downtown... or wish we had several years from now when everything is gone... and we are all driving to the Bay Area for our entertainment.

[DrKoz23]

Just a quick question along the same lines as the arena.

Do you think downtown is already re-vitalized? If not, what would you do to make downtown a destination... rather than a throughway to the airport?

[Robert Giacometti]

[quote name='DrKoz23' date='Jul 25 2006, 02:53 PM' post='122559']
Robert... think of the following statement.

Going to COLLEGE is costly and as you well know there are some who CAN NOT afford to do so, yet they will be foreced to pay for something they can NOT use!

Sound familiar. I rest my case.

DrKoz23,

Help me with this one!

What in the world does going to college have to do with raising sales tax on the poor? Is anyone "FORCED" to go to college? Are you trying to say that the poor are being forced to pay for educations they can NOT afford by raising sales taxes?

I'm sorry....I don't claim to be the sharpest tool in the shed....so if you wouldn't mind explaining the case you just rested, I would appreciate it!


Thanks!

[DrKoz23]

Robert...

Our tax money pays for higher education. Hello. I don't think the poor can afford to go to college.

Stop being so condescending. Am I toward you... NO!!!!!!!!!!!! I am just stating a point!

[DrKoz23]

Think about it... someone working below the poverty line... say at McDonald's for minimum wage pays taxes into the general fund (state and federal). Portions of this money is given to higher education (universities) for funding of grants... salaries... infrastructure... and more.

Some of these people (especially those who have no high school education) would NEVER benefit from some of their tax money going toward higher education. They can't afford... or aren't even eligible to go to these universities and colleges.

If we want to make people pay for what they use... fine... I am all for it. Just don't come running to me for your mass transit projects... school bonds... or social programs.

[Revolutionist]

There is certainly no shortage of king's pride in this thread. But there is a disturbing shortage of substance.

People keep mentioning the incredible regional benefit of a new basketball stadium in general, but nobody has actually listed any. And most of what people consider a "regional" benefit is merely a Downtown Sacramento benefit.

Hotel dollars will go to Sacramento
Food dollars will go to Sacramento
New businesses will be in Sacramento
Service Sector employment will be in Sacramento

Maybe the regional benefit is that the new business owners will probably live in Granite Bay?

Will there be "some" benefit to the region? Yes, some. Probably in the form of a day trip to gold country. Certainly not enough to justify asking "regional" taxpayers to pay 200% of the construction costs in the form of a 15 year shackle. This should be a City of Sacramento project.

And I have news for you. Basketball teams don't make world class cities out of cowtowns. If that were true, we'd already be there... how long have the Kings been in Sacramento already?

If you want to build a world-class city, you do it with arts and culture: Symphony, Theater, Ballet, Art, Music, night-life, Architecture, Riverparks.. Professional sports teams are an interesting subset, but not what you hang your future on. Just look at Oakland/LA/Oakland Raiders or even our beloved Maloofs to see how fickle sports franchises are -- raising the spectre of bailing if they don't get their way.

I know, its heretical to imagine a Sacramento without bowing at the feet of the Kings. But I can see it!

Sales taxes are insidious, and next to the Social Security tax, the most burdensome of regressive taxes.

And anyone who would pay twice as much for a product, should please visit my store.

[Robert Giacometti]

Robert...

Our tax money pays for higher education. Hello. I don't think the poor can afford to go to college.

Stop being so condescending. Am I toward you... NO!!!!!!!!!!!! I am just stating a point!

DrKoz23,

Thanks for the clarification,

I'm sorry if you feel I was condescending this time, I really wasn't trying to be this time. I was simply trying to get clarification of what it was you were saying. Now that I understand....I'll be condescending.....Just kidding!

Yes, you are correct in that taxes do pay for our higher education and the poor can not afford to attend. However, the poor aren't assessed a sales tax increase to pay for college they can NOT afford to attend...like they will be, to pay for an Arena, that they probably can NOT afford to buy tickets to attend.

If I can politely and respectfully say its a bit of stretch trying to link funding for college and having sales taxes raised on the poor as being the same. Please don't be offended....but I don't feel these two points are a good example of what it is you are trying to say.

I noticed in your last post you inserted the word Hello after the first sentence. I also read where you said you weren't being condescending to me.....so I'm just going to assume that the Hello was a mistake and you intended to place it before my name at the top?

[DrKoz23]

DrKoz23,

Thanks for the clarification,

I'm sorry if you feel I was condescending this time, I really wasn't trying to be this time. I was simply trying to get clarification of what it was you were saying. Now that I understand....I'll be condescending.....Just kidding!

Yes, you are correct in that taxes do pay for our higher education and the poor can not afford to attend. However, the poor aren't assessed a sales tax increase to pay for college they can NOT afford to attend...like they will be, to pay for an Arena, that they probably can NOT afford to buy tickets to attend.

If I can politely and respectfully say its a bit of stretch trying to link funding for college and having sales taxes raised on the poor as being the same. Please don't be offended....but I don't feel these two points are a good example of what it is you are trying to say.

I noticed in your last post you inserted the word Hello after the first sentence. I also read where you said you weren't being condescending to me.....so I'm just going to assume that the Hello was a mistake and you intended to place it before my name at the top?

Robert...

My fault too. The heat is most likely getting to me... and when I get passionate about an issue sometimes my hands type faster than I can think.

I still think the college education comparison is comparable... only because taxes are supporting the elite to get an education that a certain part of the population will never benefit from. The poor and in some cases the middle class (with how expensive college is these days) are being denied an opportunity to enter these institutions even though they are funding them. Professors are given favorable salaries... tenure... and plenty of money to support their "pet projects". Should all colleges and universities become private?

Re-vitalizaiton of the downtown area will bring an increase in sales tax dollars. This in turn will give the city of Sacramento a huge boost to the city coffers for funding other projects. If the Kings leave... so will go many other entertainment events. This will in-turn take away further tax dollars from the city of Sacramento. If you are located in Sacramento city... I don't know how you could oppose this deal. There will be more return on your dollar than you put in... eventually.

Oh yeah... I liked the woman on the news tonight who said... the county supervisors were deciding between a new Kings arena and her ability to buy her kids milk. Hmmmm... one-half gallon milk $2.59 without the tax... and $2.59 with the tax! Most grocery store food isn't taxed!