219 replies to this topic

[tony]

QUOTE (Lembi Resident @ May 13 2004, 04:12 PM)

Unfortunately the painted stripes and bicycle lane, another low-cost measure, were not successful. Lembi may require some structural changes to adequately resolve the speed problem.

Lembi: You hit the nail on the head! So far, the city has been willing only to try the lowest cost traffic calming measures (turn restrictions (with ugly plastic pylons), striping on Lembi and Black Diamond, an occassional stop sign, a half-hearted attempt at a traffic circle in Briggs Ranch, and street closures. Street closures certainly are effective, but they are usually considered last resort measures that come with significant adverse affects on local access and overall mobility (the two issues drawing the most ire regarding the Sibley closure). Hopefully, the city will soon adopt a traffic calming policy, backed up with some budget, that includes a full toolbox of measures that will give traffic calming a legitimate chance of being successful, and will include ways to measure that effectiveness. Finally, I'm afraid that even the best traffic calming measures will ultimately fail if they are not backed up by the political will and resources necessary to reduce the rampant discregard fro traffic laws in our city (a problem, unfortunately, not unique to Folsom).

Regarding the question of whether Sibley is a "residential" street or not. In spite of the signs, the city (specifically the police department) does not consider Sibley to meet the state's definition of "residential" between Glenn and Natoma because there is not a high enough density of single family homes (apartments only count as one residence per building in the calculation). Consequently, they will not enforce the posted 25 mph speed limit. I have done the calculation myself and I believe this stretch of Sibley does, indeed, meet the definition, although not by much.

[mtnhiker]

QUOTE (tony @ May 14 2004, 08:38 AM)

[there is not a high enough density of single family homes (apartments only count as one residence per building in the calculation). Consequently, they will not enforce the posted 25 mph speed limit. I have done the calculation myself and I believe this stretch of Sibley does, indeed, meet the definition, although not by much.

hi Tony,

While this reasoning is provided for not enforcing the speed on
Sibley, what possibly could be the reason for not enforcing it
on Lembi , where speeding is quite blatent.

[lurker]

I would agree woth Tony that those plastic pylons are gawd-awful. They are terribly tacky, and make this beautiful city look trashy. There has to be an alternative, like removable bollards that stick out of the ground (but can be unlocked and removed by police, fire, etc.) The street closure on Sibley isn't bad, why can't they do that for the rest of the city?

[jagayman]

Sibley Resident, yes I live in the California Hills dev. across from Cobblestone Ridge. I noticed yesterday that they have are running a traffic survey at the new entrance that they put in for the Enclave. Looks like this may already be getting some attention.

-jason.

[Shadow]

I find it interesting/ironic that the city has a moratorium on Speed Humps when we can't seem to avoid them in the parking lots of the businesses we visit.

[tony]

mtnhiker: I can only speculate, but it would generally be the same reason speeds are not enforced throughout the city: lack of resources, lack of political will (nobody wants to be the bad cop) and the major hassle/expense of having to go to Sacramento if someone challenges a ticket.

[Sibley Resident]

Tony,
Although, I have not decided how I feel about Speed Humps. I understand the Emergency response having problems with them and I do feel they have some validity to their position. We did try re-addressing it to get a trial of them on Sibley, but Emergency Response was there to defend their position. With the resistance we have had trying to get the trial of these, I doubt very highly that the city will be trying them any time soon, if ever. Do you know why the moratorium was initially implemented? Was it the objections of Emergency Response?

[Lembi Resident]

Tony: While I wholeheartedly agree that Folsom is in need of a formal NTMP/NTCP (Neighborhood Traffic Management/Calming Program), it seems that demonstrated by the various traffic calming measures the city has already taken, we are moving in that direction.

While the striping on Lembi did not achieve the desired speed reduction, I do not think that it necessarily was a mistake to first attempt a low-cost measure. It is important to note that the decision to stripe the street was made two years ago, prior to the organization of a citizens’ committee to address traffic concerns in the area. Since then, the city, working with the citizens, has taken a look at numerous accepted traffic calming options, eliminating those that were not suitable for the various streets in the area. The city has agreed that the Lembi striping was not effective, and that other measures may be necessary to satisfactorily reduce the speeding problems.

In the case of Sibley, after analyzing various traffic calming options, the city and citizens committee agreed that structural changes (i.e. part-time closure) would hopefully bring about the desired traffic calming. I believe that the city was wise in foregoing low-cost intermediate traffic calming steps that had little likelihood of success for Sibley and the surrounding streets.

I also agree that to be successful, any traffic calming project should be comprehensive, employing the three E’s: engineering, enforcement, education. My concern about this current 30-day trial is that it may have been lacking in a little enforcement and education. With a little more police presence, we might have seen fewer dangerous U-turns on Bidwell, Sibley, Lembi and even in the middle of Riley!

Although the city did a good job in educating drivers via road signage, there should have been more communication regarding the reasoning behind the trial, and the process by which it was designed. The articles in the “Telegraph” are mediocre at best, and attendance at or viewing of city council meetings seems to be limited. I believe there is a prevalent misconception in the community that this t/c trial is the city’s knee-jerk reaction to a group of noisy residents who are only concerned with the interests of their own stretch of street. If they only knew how many long hours the city staff and citizens spent looking at option after option, always keeping in mind the concerns of commuters, residents and businesses alike!

[tony]

Sibley: Nice job on the pros and cons of speed humps. As for the history of the moratorium, it pre-dates my involvement in htese issues and probably has always been driven by the fire department. One other twist on the speed humps is that there are inflatable speeed humps on the market that compress under the weight of heavy vehicles like fire trucks, but not under lighter vehicles. I'm not sure where ambulances fit into that range, but they are oft-cited as the most critical vehicles because of the effects of a bumpy ride on emergency patients.

[Shadow]

I find the discussion as to why the speed limit on Sibley is not enforced interesting.

I grew up and worked in the metro Detroit area for many years. I also lived in Phoenix for a few years. In both of these locations my job was generally 30 miles from where I lived. Both of these cities and their metro areas have their majors streets set up in a grid format. You could drive straight on one street for many miles through several of the smaller suburban towns. The degree to which the general population speeded on these roads was strongly related to the police presence and enforcement of the speed limit on these roads. In the towns or areas where there was zero tolerance on speeding, the general population followed the speed limit and in areas where there was a 10mph "forgiveness" the general population drove 10mph hour over the speed limit.

In the 5 years that I have lived in Folsom, I have never (not to say that it has not happened - I just haven't seen it) seen someone pulled over on Sibley for speeding or even seen the police directly monitoring the speed of traffic on Sibley. I have only seen one of those radar machines periodically placed on the street that let drivers know what their speed is. In fact I have only seen someone pulled over by the police on any street in Folsom only about 5 or 6 times. It is my impression that traffic violations are not a high priority with the city of Folsom police. The speed limit on Sibley is posted at 25mph and it is up to the police in Folsom to let the drivers know that they will strictly enforce this limit and that speeding on this street (or any street) will not be tolerated.

I know that this part strays from the Sibley closure a bit, but I also find the school zone speed limits and enforcement to be the loosest of all the areas I have lived in. In Michigan, the school zones are clearly marked and the speed limit is ALWAYS ( I never understood legally what "when children present" meant in relation to the enforcement of the 25mph school zone in the Sacramento area) 25mph from 7am through 4pm and is strictly enforced. In Phoenix, their school zones are also clearly marked and the speed limit is 10mph - no passing (meaning if a car in the next lane was going slower or was stopped you could not pass that driver) and is even more strictly enforced (they will write you up for going 11mph or passing a stopped car in school zones and the courts rarely dsimiss these tickets). On my way to work in these areas, I would regularly see people pulled over by the police, especially in school zones. I have rarely seen the police even present in school zones in the Sacramento area (not just Folsom).

The only way the general population will begin to follow the posted speed limits is if the Folsom Police department will begin to more strictly enforce these limits. For as long as they choose not to do this, for whatever reason, the speeding and reckless driving will continue.

This is the first time in my life I have worked within 5 miles of my home and since the Sibley street closure, my drive is even more time consuming than some of my 30 mile drives in the previous towns I lived in because I now have to stay on Folsom Blvd all the way to Bidwell. I can't stress enough that I do sympathize with the residents on Sibley regarding the speeding and traffic volume and do agree that something needs to be done. However, this street closure is a more costly solution and has a strong negative impact on the overall community.

I have searched high and low for quality day care for my children. I have even changed my day care from one that was more convenient to my work to Creative Discoveries because I wasn't happy with how my daughter was being treated at the other day care. She has thrived at Creative Discoveries and her self esteem and overall growth has been amazing. I just love her teachers and care takers there. Despite this, I will find it necessary to find a new day care if Sibley were to remain closed. I miss spending the extra 40-60 minutes (yes it is actually that long especially if I hit Folsom Blvd after 5:15pm) I am now spending in traffic rather than with my children. I am not the only parent with this issue. A day care facility has been that property since 1979 and the current day care's business will be negatively impacted by the closure of Sibley. There are other local businesses that will suffer as well. I firmly believe that other solutions should be considered and tried before the Sibley street closure is to be considered as a permanent solution.

[Stephen]

QUOTE (Shadow @ May 16 2004, 06:36 AM)

This is the first time in my life I have worked within 5 miles of my home and since the Sibley street closure, my drive is even more time consuming than some of my 30 mile drives in the previous towns I lived in because I now have to stay on Folsom Blvd all the way to Bidwell.  I can't stress enough that I do sympathize with the residents on Sibley regarding the speeding and traffic volume and do agree that something needs to be done. I have searched high and low for quality day care for my children.  I have even changed my day care from one that was more convenient to my work to Creative Discoveries because I wasn't happy with how my daughter was being treated at the other day care.  She has thrived at Creative Discoveries and her self esteem and overall growth has been amazing.  I just love her teachers and care takers there.  Despite this, I will find it necessary to find a new day care if Sibley were to remain closed.  I miss spending the extra 40-60 minutes (yes it is actually that long especially if I hit Folsom Blvd after 5:15pm) I am now spending in traffic rather than with my children.

Interesting. I have frequently been on that same span of Folsom Blvd. during those same times since the closure. It hasn't added 40 to 60 mins. to my travel time.

Another point. You frequently post that you sympathize with the residents of the area, BUT........ "But" is always followed with what YOU want. What about what is best for the community at large? Isn't that what the city and the group of residents were trying to do? Find a solution for NOW and the FUTURE that looks at the interests of businesses and residents and drivers?

Thriving children are important. Glad your child is doing well. Have you thought about the children and families in the Sibley neighborhood who might NOT be thriving because of the traffic problems? Traffic can erode neighborhoods.

I doubt that Creative Discoveries is the only daycare where your child will thrive. If you perceive the traffic to be too much, maybe you need to look at the many options in town. Not suggesting you do, just pointing out an option. People make similar changes all the time. Think about a business that relocates. Do you think the business will change its plans because one or two or even many employees might need to make daycare changes or add some travel time to their day?

Everyone in Folsom has to bend a little with this traffic problem and with many others around town. Traffic problems are a fact of life. Trees that don't break in storms are those that bend with the wind.

[Sibley Resident]

Shadow,

When my husband and I had to move, part of the reason we choose Folsom was because of where he worked. My husband at the time worked in Granite Bay and we tested the drive several times on several different days from this house to his work and back before buying it, and it took him no more than 15min to get back and fourth. Over the year, year and half he worked there, because of development, increasing population and the Dam closure, that same drive could take him depending on the day, between 30min to 45 min and with an accident sometimes over an hour. That is what happens; our commute times will forever be changing. It will not somehow magically stay the same even if you were to use Sibley. Sibley like every place else that has dramatically changed over the last 2 years or so, will not somehow stay the same as it was prior to the Sibley closure. It is obvious that you are frustrated about this, but my husband, who has now changed jobs, along with several (I can count atleast 7 I know of that I have spoken with to see how they are doing with it) of my neighbors, make the drive from Prairie City, to either Blue Ravine/Glenn to Folsom Blvd to Natoma every day now. They have not seen 40 to 45min added to there commute, matter of fact the most, was 15min one day when there was an accident. It has added on average 5 to 10min. This is virtually the same drive From Natoma Station.

QUOTE

I can't stress enough that I do sympathize with the residents on Sibley regarding the speeding and traffic volume and do agree that something needs to be done. However, this street closure is a more costly solution and has a strong negative impact on the overall community.

Again this is not about Sibley or it’s residents only. This is about entire neighborhoods and what is in the best interest of those neighborhoods, now and in the future. Peoples jobs, will forever be changing, where they live, will forever be changing, there commute times, will forever be changing. Let me ask you, do you care about the people on Cobble Ridge. Because if you don’t, then fine. Let me explain how this even helps them. Currently on my side of the neighborhood we receive an excessive amount of cut through traffic because of the lights on Folsom Blvd/Natoma and Riley/Natoma. When those lights turn red or are red they shoot off of those arterials to Bidwell to use Reading, Decatur, Wool, and the Historic Section of Sibley to get onto Natoma, Instead of waiting for the one light. This is all about, if my car is still moving, I’m getting somewhere faster. They also do it when they are coming up Natoma and going to make a right onto Riley. Instead of waiting through the one light it would take them when they get there, they cut over on all our streets to Bidwell up to Riley. When that light goes in at Sibley and Glenn, which it has to for the flow of traffic on Glenn and Sibley to Glenn. I can’t imagine their behavior will be in different over there than it is here. They are driving down Glenn to reach their shortcut Sibley and the light turns red or the light is already red, because there car must keep moving, they will take the right hand turn on Cobble Ridge to Lembi to their short cut Sibley, instead of waiting for the light to turn green. If you don’t believe they will do this, just come over to our side and watch them do it all day. As long as the Internal problems of these neighborhoods are not address, they will forever be vulnerable and will have to rely strictly on the good will of the people not to do this. I can assure you, that good will is lacking significantly.

I know some are having a hard time beilieving this but the recommendations we made, were for the best interest of the entire neighborhoods now and in the future and not for Sibley or it's so called few residents.

Orangetj, Mtnhkr I don't believe that you were on our committee or live on Sibley. I have appreciated greatly your willingness to try this and your support here on the forum to try it. I Hope and believe you know that this was also for Lembi and more?

[Sibley Resident]

Shadow,

The Daycare was taken into serious consideration and several changes where made to our recommendations with them in mind?

We also took into consideration the safety of the families and their children in that daycare, We considered accessibility now and in the future with the increased traffic happening (causing negative impact). Just ask all the businesses on the other side of the bridge that have been screaming, because there is so much traffic right in front of them that people do not want to pull in and out of there driveways and has caused them to loose business. However, people who can eventually get out of that traffic and drive more easily around getting in and out of a business, will be more likely to use that business. We took into consideration the development of 22 new homes that will be built on this side of the closure on Sibley (I believe it is 22, I will have to look at my documentation) and the children in those homes, significant potential business for the daycare, since those parents will have to drive right by it. We considered the 5 accesses that still remain and more was considered. This recommendation was not made to hurt them. This recommendation was made for the best interest of these neighborhoods, trying very hard to cause as little impact to the residents here and the businesses as possible, and as I explained before, even for the arterial system, Unless everyone wants stop lights at every entrance and exit to these neighborhoods on the arterial, because of the volume of traffic in the neighborhoods.

[Lembi Resident]

QUOTE (Sibley Resident @ May 16 2004, 07:58 AM)

This is all about, if my car is still moving, I’m getting somewhere faster.

This is probably the mindset behind most cut-through traffic. I doubt drivers are cutting-through our neighborhoods to admire our exceptional gardening!

It's similar to the hurry-up-and-wait drivers who cut you off just to get to the red light before you! Or the grocery shopper who changes check-out lines three times to find the faster one, and ends up waiting the longest!

What every happened to those bits of wisdom?:

"Haste makes waste."
"Slow and steady wins the race."

[jagayman]

How about turning Sibley into a toll road? By having to pay a modest amount -- say somewhere between $1 and $100 -- directly dependent on the wait time on Folsom Blvd -- commuters are required to decide if they want to take the free, 4-lane FB or pay to take the breathtakingly beautiful Sibley scenic drive.

Central District residents and day care customers get a free pass. The tolls go towards paying the toll booth operators (which adds jobs, I might add) and towards street improvements.

We could also start a fund for neighborhood improvements. Those hidden frontyard spike strips aren't free, you know.

Then, some Sibley residents can finally buy those jewel-encrusted gold mailboxes they've always been wanting

-jason.