627 replies to this topic

[mylo]

What could possibly be their motives in NOT doing this?

Perhaps holding it back until a dry year?

[banana]

And heres a caveat to your public vs. voucher issue. If you drive out the public system, which I admit is FAR from perfect, who is going to teach in these voucher schools. The thing you don't bring up is that a voucher does not pay for ALL of the schooling. It will pay for a portion of the schooling. That's all well and good for those that can afford it. What ends up happening is that the voucher will be worth just enough for some of the schools, while other schools will ratchet up their prices. Just another class war on another level. Again, I'm not saying the public school system is perfect, but the voucher system has it's bugs as well.

Who's driving out the public system? The public system will continue to exist, though I would suspect that if parents had choice via a voucher program you'd have less students.

You're right, vouchers would not cover all of a private school, but it may well cover the tuition at a charter school.

In any event, fewer students in public school means a better student-teacher ratio, which as you've stated, has shown through irrefutable evidence to be better for the kids.

So the folks that can afford private will get the tax dollars they contributed back via vouchers and will fund out of their own pockets the rest of private school tuition which is hefty.

Others will choose charter schools - those range from relatively inexpensive to just as expensive as a private school.

And the student population in the public schools would decrease benefitting the students there as well.

An active and competitive educational marketplace will improve performance all around. As the public schools improve some students may very well return.

If the performance of public schools doesn't remain competitive, then it'll "go out of business", and all those students will be absorbed by the competing schools.

When you have competition, prices go down ie. airlines, hotels, etc. bad businesses go bankrupt and disappear, good businesses survive and the best, thrive.

By the way, I'd take with a grain of salt anything a parent says to you in person. Some may indeed be expressing legitimate support. As for others, don't be so sure.

Do you really expect a parent to bring up all of these issues when few have other resources? They just smile, tell you it's great, support the teachers, drop off little Johnny and hop back in their SUVs.

It's not much different than if you're about to undergo surgery. Are you really going to have a discussion with your doctor about the health crisis and the problems as you see it right before he's about to carve you up? Doubtful. You'll have nothing but nice things to say to your doctor and any misgivings you'll keep to yourself.

Now, if you have a lot of choice, lets say, cell phones. You'll let that customer rep get an earful on the terrible service before you moved on to another service provider.

I still remember the days of Ma Bell. You grit your teeth and you were nice, very nice, because you had no choice. Even though we all know the phone company back then was awful.

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[ducky]

Oh I've heard that more times than I can count. People will tell you 1x1 things they won't say in a public forum.

It's all about playing the game, make it easy for your kids, schmoozing with the teachers in the hopes you kid will be remembered and treated well, be given more attention, etc.

I see parents tripping over each other bringing in brownies and cookies and volunteering in the hopes that it translates into more favorable treatment for their kids.

I'm sorry but I'm one of those parents who tries to do the extra things for the students and it has nothing to do with schmoozing the teacher unless you count trying to free up the teacher's time for academics and also giving the children occasional special days to look forward to at the same time. How sad and jaded that someone would see people wanting to know the names of the students in your child's class by volunteering and going on field trips and baking special treats as nothing but self-serving

Frankly, if I ever was made to feel like my child was being made to pay for my viewpoints on the educational system, I'm sure I could cause more trouble for the teacher than the other way around in these days of PC living. I can't imagine a teacher I've ever met doing such a thing.

[forumreader]

We bookend the student, the student/teacher bookend the parent and the parent/student bookend the teacher. It's a triangle of support and we all have our roles. We years of teaching comes experience and confidence. Enough to stand up to most parents.

Would you please elaborate on this "bookend" or "triangle of support" analogy.

Is this a theorectical ideal? Honestly, I have not often experienced true collaboration between parents and teachers/administration. More often there exists adversarial undertones.

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[tessieca]

I swear, I am DEFINITELY going into the educational system to teach when I retire from corporate america and once I get tenure I am going to use the teaching platform to speak out against the teacher's union and tenure.

When you do that, remember that in FCUSD you also receive retirement benefits after you reach 15 years. Remember also, that for any class you take you stand to move over a column on the pay scale before ever receiving any COLA of any sort. So, 65+% of teachers have already received between 3% and 13% increase in pay for the year WITHOUT adding in ANY COLA.

Most surrounding districts are working on negotiating increases less than 5% for this year. Two nearby districts have settled at greater than that rate, but their pay scales remain lower than FCUSD's so I daresay nobody would opt to replace their new pay rates with ours.

Is retaliation against your kids for speaking ill about their teachers really a fear for parents here?

Even in my position, I fear this. It has occurred on a rare occasion even in years when negotiations are not so hostile. Like with Forumreader, I have also experienced particular years/particular teachers who are somewhat adversarial where as a parent I felt I had to fight "the institution" for what I thought was best for my own kids. This year is all good so far, despite the issues with negotiations. [Note: knocking on wood, crossing fingers]

[sanmateo60]

It's not something I would fear.

If that actually came to pass (not that I think it does), what a sad commentary that would be for that teacher! I'm sure most teachers are above stopping to that level. If I've ever had a beef w/ another adult (not that I have had many, but you don't hit it off w/ everyone), both parties have always taken steps to not involve the children.

If that did happen, however, your children would learn to deal with adversity at a young age. Not that you want that to happen, but it's something they're going to have to learn at some point.

It's stooping not "stopping" and rudimentary not "rudimentaty"(from an earlier post) but it's OK, we all make honest mistakes like not getting an obvious reference, so no need for personal attacks.

[akmommy]

I don't teach in FCUSD, but a nearby district. I'd like to comment on compensation and tenure that is somewhat different where I teach.

Our payscale is lower across the board than FCUSD (we top out in high 60s). You go up a year in service every year for the 1st 12 years, then no increases until year 16 and then again at year 20. During my career, I can increase my salary by increasing the number of college units I have completed in excess of my BA (one step every 15 units--tops out at +75 units). There is no increase in salary for MA. As a teacher, I support a pay scale that acknowledges the harder workers, the teachers who go the extra mile. I would NOT support a system that uses test scores--the stellar teachers I've worked with always end up with the most difficult to teach kids, and often their test scores are slightly lower due to these children's "special needs". I pay over $650 per mo. out of pocket for medical/dental (this is the cheapest plan) but have great coverage. I will not receive lifetime healthcare benefits-my district gave this up years ago.

In my district, you CAN be promoted from probationary to full-time ("tenured") after 2 years, however this is not a given. During the first two years you can be let go for any reason, and the district WILL NOT discuss why (although it is never a great mystery). In the 10+ years I have been in this district, I have seen teachers who were "tenured" let go. In most cases, they were given the option of resigning, and took it. In 2 cases, the teachers were fired, tried to make a big stink with the union, but the district had the unsatisfactory performance evaluations to support the fire. I am full-time and formally evaluated AT LEAST once a school year (the principal will increase this if needed), any my principal pops into every classroom at least once a month (unannounced) and the superintendent makes the time to stop by at least twice a year (also unannounced). In my opinion, I work with a stronger staff because I have a principal that is so involved in what is going on, and makes it very clear that he has high expectations from his staff and will not allow "slackers" to survive. We know he is not afraid to dismiss "tenured" teachers, and it has been helpful to us when he has let loose the teachers who don't pull their share.

Just thought people should know that FCUSD is NOT lowest in the area, and that "tenure" is not a free pass--although it can be if you work for a principal that allows it to be.

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[tgianco]

It's stooping not "stopping" and rudimentary not "rudimentaty"(from an earlier post) but it's OK, we all make honest mistakes like not getting an obvious reference, so no need for personal attacks.

No worries. Those were typos.

I did not mean to attack you (although I would probably take it that way, too, so sorry about that), but that's something we can discuss whenever instead of firing back and forth.

[banana]

When you do that, remember that in FCUSD you also receive retirement benefits after you reach 15 years.

Remember also, that for any class you take you stand to move over a column on the pay scale before ever receiving any COLA of any sort.

So, 65+% of teachers have already received between 3% and 13% increase in pay for the year WITHOUT adding in ANY COLA.

15yrs? You're pulling my ol' leg aren't you? Yanking my chain a wee bit perhaps? Maybe an exaggeration? Or are you telling me that some 21yr old college grad that decides to go teach can start pulling down retirement benefits at 36? They can't actually get retirement benefits at that age right?

Tell me more about this class business. Any class taken? What are the limitations? Does it have to relate to the specific area I'm teaching or can it be any class that's of interest to me?

And do these classes get counted if taken before beginning a teaching career or is it better to wait and take them once you begin teaching to get the credit for the class?

Wow, 3-13% before COLA! Can I begin teaching part-time (and will the classes I take during that time count for move up on the pay scale? Does that apply to all of K12?

Is there a pay differential teaching lets say kindergarten vs. high school?

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