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Sandy Hook Elementary School Shooting: Newtown, Connecticut

Guns mass shooting

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#151 tsukiji

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:51 AM

Are there any stats on how many times the extra firepower afforded by automatic weapons and large magazines actually made a difference for self defense vs. making unlawful killers so much more efficient at the task?

I know these weapons are out there, but if there is a will to put the genie back in the bottle (maybe not the hopeful analogy :) ), there will be a way to do it even if it takes a long time. But you gotta start some time. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to grandfathering qualified individuals (would need checks on eventual transfers; e.g., at death). No, a ban wouldn't stop a sophisticated and determined terrorist or criminal, but it would make it more difficult for average criminals and psychos to get their hands on the weapons. Who are you more likely to be up against?


I can appreciate that you're trying to approach this reasonably. But perhaps solutions can be approached a little more cautiously -- where are current societal and cultural trends taking us, both domestically and globally? What issues are really at hand? What are the long term implications of a course of action?

To what extent should a non-perfect government restrict the natural rights of a populace and to what end? We're not talking about privileges here; please consider the differences between a natural right and a privilege. We're so lax with with abuse of privileges but oddly strict on natural rights. This does not bode well for society. When you have a biased media, one should be extra diligent with the cause they are advocating.

But in the end, one reaches their individual decisions through whatever process one deems appropriate.

#152 chris v

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:02 AM

Chris V called her a fool in his post she was replying to.


Which was actually supposed to say foolish, but my iPhone auto corrected that.

#153 supermom

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:43 AM

This was sent to me via facebook. a glimpse into reasons why people fear their firearms being taken from them:

Posted Image

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total
of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!
The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.
With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!
If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends.
SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!
IT'S A NO BRAINER!
DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.
Spread the word everywhere you can that you are a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment!

It's time to speak loud before they try to silence and disarm us.
You're not imagining it, history shows that governments always manipulate tragedies to attempt to disarm the people~


#154 4thgenFolsomite

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:55 AM

Well, we will all never agree and I'm not sure there is any more progress to be made here now that everyone has chimed in, staked out their territory and are defending it now..... so I will just say, "Merry Christmas, Everyone!!!"
Knowing the past helps deciphering the future.

#155 supermom

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:12 AM

But kids are being shot with these rifles-thats my point. So you have fun shooting your assault rifle, no one is stopping you...just like no one is stopping the massacre killings


Priscilla, do you have a dog? Do you play with it? Teach it to fetch on command? Teach it to wrestle a rope in your hands? You encourage its' attack and chase instincts?

What about your knife you use to filet fish in your kitchen. Do you think the outcome could be any different in a classroom with 1st graders and one teacher that had no stop gaps to prevent uninvited guests into the classroom? Your argument for less lethal is illogical. Based on emotions. And fear. The people on this forum continue to ignore the fat that on the same day the Sandy Hook Massacre happened--- 22 children in an elementary school in China were murdered by a knife wielding man, standing at the entrance gate to the school as children were coming into school. Can you make a suggestion how to make a kitchen knife less lethal?

And Folsom... she wants to make firearms "less lethal". You know what that is? a baton. wait no... Law enforcement have deemed a baton as a lethal weapon and should only be used on a person when lethal resolution is acceptable. 1 person in a room with 1st graders and 1 teacher armed with a baton, could cause mass casualties.

Rebuild St. Agnews--open it back up. give famlies the option to put their ciolent schizophrenic and dementia addled adult children into a secure facility. And for God's sake: put people in there that wont abuse their power and authority over those mentally disabled.

Get the disability system overhauled for mental ill or emotionally broken.

A dog in a classroom of 1st graders with an adult that is unarmed is just as likely to have mass casualties.

Finally, I invite all of you to look at the statistics of caretakers who abandon, abuse, or kick out adult children with these problems. The health care system wont help. The parents become exhausted. Or worse, they get jailed for snapping and hurting a mentally disable person.

Shish ka bobs---put the freaking Iraqi and Afghani tanks in the garage and get our poor and miserable off the streets right here in America

#156 mando

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:14 AM

I can appreciate that you're trying to approach this reasonably. But perhaps solutions can be approached a little more cautiously -- where are current societal and cultural trends taking us, both domestically and globally? What issues are really at hand? What are the long term implications of a course of action?

To what extent should a non-perfect government restrict the natural rights of a populace and to what end? We're not talking about privileges here; please consider the differences between a natural right and a privilege. We're so lax with with abuse of privileges but oddly strict on natural rights. This does not bode well for society. When you have a biased media, one should be extra diligent with the cause they are advocating.

But in the end, one reaches their individual decisions through whatever process one deems appropriate.


I hear ya, but I don't immediately agree with (still pondering) some of the premises. Is the right to bear arms really a natural right? At the moment I would argue that it isn't although I would agree that the right to defend one's self is, but I think there ought to be a reasonable limit to the means by which this is accomplished. At a certain point, you infringe on the rights of others to expect personal safety.

#157 New Girl

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:49 AM

" The people on this forum continue to ignore the fat that on the same day the Sandy Hook Massacre happened--- 22 children in an elementary school in China were murdered by a knife wielding man, standing at the entrance gate to the school as children were coming into school. "

According to CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2...tack/index.html) 22 children were injured in the knife attack. This was an awful, terrible crime but at least those children are home now. I wonder what the outcome would have been if the perpetrator had carried a gun instead.

#158 Chris

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:49 AM

Again and again I have told the ones here who know nothing of guns (Priscilla..?) that my M1 Garand made in 1941 is so much more deadly than my Sig556 (an AR type) rifle from 2011.... Nothing............

And magazine capacity means nothing, nothing at all really when it comes to the number of rounds that can be expended in a certain period of time by a trained and practiced shooter..........

Example:

And one thing the press never mentions is the lives saved every day by legal gun owners who defend life and property from bad guys, happens everyday. I am sure in the three days since this Sandy Hook massacre happened that 26 lives were saved by legal and responsible gun owners.

Examples: http://gunssavelives...y/self-defense/

And again, a rental truck, 500 pounds of fertilizer, and 20 gallons of Kerosene will kill 168 people really quick, just ask anyone in Oklahoma City...... Chris

1A - 2A = -1A


#159 cw68

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:06 PM

And magazine capacity means nothing, nothing at all really when it comes to the number of rounds that can be expended in a certain period of time by a trained and practiced shooter..........

And again, a rental truck, 500 pounds of fertilizer, and 20 gallons of Kerosene will kill 168 people really quick, just ask anyone in Oklahoma City...... Chris

Yes, each of these statements are true. However, an inexperience shooter is more to do a heck of a lot more damage with an auto or semi-automatic than without because they don't have the same skills. True? Who do you think we have lastly more of, highly experienced and accurate shooters like the one in your video? Answer honestly.

I'm a lot more concerned about the public's safety from the majority of the people who can flip and have (IMHO) too easy access to automatic weapons of high capacity, regardless of impressive videos like you showed us.

Secondly, yes, a truck full of fertilizer and be very deadly. But that takes a lot more planning and capabilities than grabbing your Mom's automatic weapons. Let's talk apples to apples here.

I don't think a big ole gun ban is what we need, but I see nothing wrong with 1) instituting more reasonable steps in helping (can't guarantee sheeeet) ensure responsible gun ownership like mental and criminal background checks and required gun safety instruction, and 2) not allowing citizens to have high military grade weaponry. (Why stop at letting people have guns? How about bombs and nuclear devices?)

#160 tsukiji

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:23 PM

Yes, each of these statements are true. However, an inexperience shooter is more to do a heck of a lot more damage with an auto or semi-automatic than without because they don't have the same skills. True? Who do you think we have lastly more of, highly experienced and accurate shooters like the one in your video? Answer honestly.

I'm a lot more concerned about the public's safety from the majority of the people who can flip and have (IMHO) too easy access to automatic weapons of high capacity, regardless of impressive videos like you showed us.

Secondly, yes, a truck full of fertilizer and be very deadly. But that takes a lot more planning and capabilities than grabbing your Mom's automatic weapons. Let's talk apples to apples here.

I don't think a big ole gun ban is what we need, but I see nothing wrong with 1) instituting more reasonable steps in helping (can't guarantee sheeeet) ensure responsible gun ownership like mental and criminal background checks and required gun safety instruction, and 2) not allowing citizens to have high military grade weaponry. (Why stop at letting people have guns? How about bombs and nuclear devices?)


In general, I disagree with the premise of the first paragraph. Auto (and especially semi-auto) does NOT make up for competency. Consider this analogy: you can give a student driver a 600HP race car or 200HP speed bike - doesn't mean that person will be able to navigate a non-oval race course any faster. There are competencies involved. It's not just about speed. It's not just about control. It's a combination of speed and control. And it depends on the situation. Fish in a barrel - auto or semi-auto - makes no difference.

Said differently - I would be more concerned about someone with skills than with someone with an auto. Auto does not mean magic -- actually, often times it requires even more skill. We generally think of something automatic as easily enabling more proficiency -- in this case, i think auto is something that requires advanced skills not less.

I agree with enforcement of preventing possession by violent felons, mentally challenged and others who exhibit sociopathic (clinical sense) behavior; but this is a slippery slope and there is cause for great concern here - what are the metrics, who administrates those metrics, how much subjectivity is introduced, etc. And I'd probably concede that there is a line between rifles and nukes. But rifles are not where the line should be drawn; so, I'm not sure I'd agree with the phrase 'high military grade weaponry' and I'd maintain an initial stake in the ground that anything a SWAT team would use should be a minimum.

#161 supermom

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:29 PM

Yes, each of these statements are true. However, an inexperience shooter is more to do a heck of a lot more damage with an auto or semi-automatic than without because they don't have the same skills. True? Who do you think we have lastly more of, highly experienced and accurate shooters like the one in your video? Answer honestly.

False----on a daily basis there are shootongs in cities and horsebarn pastures all across America by inexperienced people. They are labeled as shootings, discharges, and the such because the inexperienced people can't hit the side of a barn to save their lives. If you were to pick up a gun or knife in a heat of passion and have never attacked a human being with neither- ever before- you have a higher chance of killing with a knife.

I'm a lot more concerned about the public's safety from the majority of the people who can flip and have (IMHO) too easy access to automatic weapons of high capacity, regardless of impressive videos like you showed us.

100% mental health is a problem in a country where population has ...what?... quadrupled in the last 50 years////

Secondly, yes, a truck full of fertilizer and be very deadly. But that takes a lot more planning and capabilities than grabbing your Mom's automatic weapons. Let's talk apples to apples here.

Actually, it takes only renting a truck ( versus a waitng period for an assault rifle)- and walking into random harware stores with cash, and then taking it all to a nice spot to mix up in someplace remote like the woods. It is actually assinine how easy it is to park a rental truck on public property. A good example--- a DMV building. totally easy to park a vehicle there.

I don't think a big ole gun ban is what we need, but I see nothing wrong with 1) instituting more reasonable steps in helping (can't guarantee sheeeet) ensure responsible gun ownership like menta (priVacy rights of the individual)l and criminal background ( already done)checks and required gun safety instruction(already required), and 2) not allowing citizens to have high military grade weaponry( extremely easy to claim anything is military grade and then you have a government feared by the people who cant defend themselves). (Why stop at letting people have guns? How about bombs and nuclear devices?)


Actually, there is limited law in owning a bomb... :)
And it is completely legal to own flame throwers in California. Which I find incredibly odd

#162 cw68

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:59 PM

How many people here, if there were handed a gun would
A) know how to shoot it well
B) have shot guns so they know it OK
C) could take a good guess
D) wouldn't have any clue?

#163 chris v

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 02:18 PM

How many people here, if there were handed a gun would
A) know how to shoot it well
B) have shot guns so they know it OK
C) could take a good guess
D) wouldn't have any clue?


A. As long as it was familiar.
A2. Would ask if I wasn't sure.

#164 (The Dude)

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 02:26 PM

How many people here, if there were handed a gun would
A) know how to shoot it well
B) have shot guns so they know it OK
C) could take a good guess
D) wouldn't have any clue?


A

#165 Carl G

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:55 PM

Sorry- your "friends" article is full of bs. completely biased.

Have you ever babysat a child with any type of autism?

You definitely have to keep them in your line of sight, constantly. (in case you feel like asking me, the answer is yes, I have).

As for autism kids.... you better believe they have entire blocks of time that they are introverted. and different kids with aspbergers have different response to stimuli that appear violent but are actually body jerks. Not violence. And that misconception often scares the crud out of ignorant people. different asbergers kids also have other problems, as well.. These problems are not consistent. They are not by the book.

Sometimes, these kids can have aspbergers and then have other mental conditions that are untreated because the doctors just cant communicate to the patient well enough to treat it.

If you have never been normal how can you tell a doctor what is wrong?

And since a kid who babysat this guy at 10 years old never knew him as a young man when most psychotic personality disorders present themselves, then how can you possibly take this article for anything other than a piece of crud inflammatory sensationalism? We dont have that kids mental diagnosis in front of us. Let's try to keep that in mind before trying to blame mommy.

There is no way to control certain types of psychotic breaks when they happen. And it doesnt necessarily mean there is going to be any forewarning of a change in his normal behavior or personality.

This guy could have been a typical "genius" level kid with the zero ability to socially interact who was moved around different schools because they didnt have a school that had a section that dedicates itself to autism array disorders (like Folsom schools do).

In other words, you really dont know if his behavior was normal or not- prior to this mental break. Anything could have happened. We need more info.

To be clear, the article I linked to is a result of a quick Google search. I could link to other sites / articles too.

I'll agree with you that we need more information, but based on what we have learned, the mother was an idiot, plain and simple. Given the nature of her child that she had living in her house, she had no business having guns in the house. My assumption is this wan't the case, but the guns should have been in a safe and possibly also with trigger locks. If she didn't feel the guns should have been protected from her son, then they certainly should be safe from theft.

As for my experience with the violent kid - I've had several instances where I almost needed to step in and defend my children from this person if his parents weren't able to get him under control. Does this child possibly have issues other than Asbergers? Maybe, I quite honestly that isn't my concern. The safety of my children and others is what I care about.





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