219 replies to this topic

[bordercolliefan]

To Angel (owner of the day care center) -- Please share with us whether the partial road closure has had an effect on your business, and if so, what kind of effect(s). What feedback have you received from parents? Have you noticed a decrease in enrollments or inquiries?

To Stephen and the others supporting the road closure: I have been very struck by your dismissive attitude toward the burden and/or inconvenience suffered by Shadow and others as a result of the road closure. Throughout this whole debate, you have told us that we are not being sufficiently empathetic to the plight of Sibley Street residents. Now, however, you are quick to tell Shadow, "Just find another day care!" To the day care owner: "Relocate your business! Our street is residential [despite the day care center having been there for many years]." I don't sense any empathy toward the people who have been hurt by this closure.

Let's say conservatively that Shadow is incurring an extra 10 minutes a day in going to pick up her children. That's basically an hour a week she is missing out on with her children -- adding up to approximately one whole WEEK a year! Multiply that across all the hundreds of parents in similar situations-- the conclusion is inescapable that this road closure has had a significant impact on the family time of numerous Folsom residents.

Now I know that all you Sibley-area residents are going to come back with arguments about how your own family life has been impacted by the excessive traffic. --I understand that; you don't need to tell me.

My point is that too often, you talk as if this road closure is cost-less: "Look how it improves the quality of life for Sibley St. residents, and it doesn't really hurt anybody!!" But that's simply not true. There ARE costs to this road closure, and people are hurt by it in significant and measurable ways.

I hope that in evaluating the road closure, the City Council appropriately balances the benefit to the Sibley area residents against the harm to other Folsom residents.

[Steve Heard]

How about if we have a new law stating that you cany drive down any street in Folsom, but only if you live on it.

[Pacoloco]

After reading these last few topics, I had some heated things I wanted to say. But that would have been counter-productive and not the direction this forum should head in.

Stevethedad - thanks for the levity

Bordercolliefan - about those daycare owners. At a neighborhood traffic meeting back in January, the daycare owners were basically prophesizing that all historic district residents (not just Sibley St) should move out of their own homes and not sacrifice any of their business. As far as I'm concerned, if they are a good, quality daycare, they will have no problem filling those empty seats. I also hope that city council implements such balances when evaluating traffic calming measures. That is their job, after all.

Jagayman - still making ma laugh

Lembi - love the wisdom

Sibley - thanks for stressing for the ump-teenth time that this not just about Sibley, but about the entire historic district and then some. And, that this is not just for the hear-and-now, but for the goodness of the future of Folsom.

Shadow - if you are really happy with the daycare, then you will not change. You will sacrifice that extra time for the well-being of your child. You will go well out of your way for your child. I know because I do. And yes, a major problem with Folsom is the lack of sufficient law enforcement. After all, if there was law enforcement, one of the neighborhood's problems (speeding) would no longer exist.

[TheCourtJester]

Is it just me, or have a lot of decision made on road closures, etc looked a lot like the council is saying "This is too busy so let's close it!" then when another street is busy, once again, "This is too busy! Close it!."

It all seems very counter-productive to me.

And they need to re-open the dam road

[Orangetj]

QUOTE (TheCourtJester @ May 16 2004, 11:38 PM)

Is it just me, or have a lot of decision made on road closures, etc looked a lot like the council is saying "This is too busy so let's close it!" then when another street is busy, once again, "This is too busy! Close it!." It all seems very counter-productive to me. And they need to re-open the dam road

It's just you. If you knew the work that went in to this process on the part of the city and the area residents, you wouldn't ask this question.

[Orangetj]

QUOTE (bordercolliefan @ May 16 2004, 04:11 PM)

To Stephen and the others supporting the road closure: I have been very struck by your dismissive attitude toward the burden and/or inconvenience suffered by Shadow and others as a result of the road closure. Throughout this whole debate, you have told us that we are not being sufficiently empathetic to the plight of Sibley Street residents. Now, however, you are quick to tell Shadow, "Just find another day care!" To the day care owner: "Relocate your business! Our street is residential [despite the day care center having been there for many years]." I don't sense any empathy toward the people who have been hurt by this closure.

Perhaps you didn't read the Sacramento Bee article in which one of the owners of Creative Discoveries was quoted as saying "Nobody likes to buy a house where traffic patterns are, but I think they have a lot easier time moving than I would," Chapin said. "There are a lot more houses in quieter neighborhoods than schools available. They could move a lot easier than my business." (Sacramento Bee, March 28, 2004).

I wonder how they would feel if the quaint part of town they operate in turned into a "no owners" zone with nothing but run down rental properties. I can't imagine that would have a positive impact on the business. Frankly, having read that quote, I made a conscious decision that I would not patronize Creative Discoveries. Instead, I drive up to El Dorado Hills to drop off and pick my daughter up from her part-time daycare. Any business that does not respect the neighborhood in which it operates does not get my business.

While I can empathize with those who are frustrated by having to use Folsom Blvd to Bidwell to pick up their children at Creative Discoveries, I simply can't believe that it adds up to more than a few minutes each direction since I drive that route myself. The wait between Blue Ravine and Bidwell Street on Folsom Blvd, while it seems interminable, consistently takes me about 5 minutes to get through at any time between 5:00 and 6:00. Granted, it SEEMS like longer than that, but the clock tells the story. Traffic going the other direction flows quickly, so that can't add significant time.

[mtnhiker]

QUOTE (Pacoloco @ May 16 2004, 11:01 PM)

Bordercolliefan - about those daycare owners. As far as I'm concerned, if they are a good, quality daycare, they will have no problem filling those empty seats. Sibley - thanks for stressing for the ump-teenth time that this not just about Sibley, but about the entire historic district and then some. And, that this is not just for the hear-and-now, but for the goodness of the future of Folsom. Shadow - if you are really happy with the daycare, then you will not change. You will sacrifice that extra time for the well-being of your child. You will go well out of your way for your child. I know because I do. And yes, a major problem with Folsom is the lack of sufficient law enforcement. After all, if there was law enforcement, one of the neighborhood's problems (speeding) would no longer exist.

Pacoloco,
good job in summing this up.

A main point people need to keep in mind is to step back
and take a look at this situation.

We used to have a small folsom town -little traffic.

Now- fast forward 20 years- same sibley ,downtown district
and small little streets. Some new houses were built in very close
to downtown as well (those on lembi,etc)
With this time comes an ever increasing amt. of traffic due to
emprire ranch ,auburn,el-dorardo hills.
This factor is the only variable in this situation.-MORE CARS

Question is do we toss the houses/home ownership along sibley,and lembi as well as the quality of historic district to the wind for commuters who want to save time?

[Terry]

One more comment about Creative Discoveries.............when it was converted from a private residence to a day care back in the late 70s/early 80s, those owners were the ones who had to make special application to the city to get a USE PERMIT to operate a day care center at that location because it was zoned residential. The special permit process looked at the impacts to the residents in the area. Thus there was accommodation made for the day care center to operate there. So, you could say that the residents have an entitlement by virtue of their residential zoning, whereas the day care center is operating by special permit process. I'm not minimizing the inconveniences to anyone involved in the traffic calming measure on Sibley.

However, the day care center needs to understand its special status and not somehow claim entitlement, when in fact they don't have an "entitlement" - they have a special variance to the residential area in order to conduct their operation.

[Shadow]

When Folsom Blvd is backed up solid to Natoma Station, it does indeed take and extra 40 minutes to get to Bidwell and Folsom Blvd. The week before last, it was like this on Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. In fact, on one of these days I looked at my clock when I reached Natoma Station and it was 5:17pm. I didn't get through the Blue Ravine light until 5:36pm. I didn't reach the day care facility until 5:49 pm. Yes, I did clock this at the suggestion of one of responses to my replies just to confirm that I was not exaggerating the issue. I had to work from home last week and I do not know what traffic was like then.

My diplomacy skills are not the best and I tend to put a lot of personal experience in my responses, but I have tried to keep in mind what I think would be best for all the local residents. The option that would best benefit me alone would be to move the closure from Sibley and Lembi to Sibley and Glenn, Sibley and Bidwell, or even to the other side of Sibley and Lembi. That way I could enjoy the peace and quiet of Sibley (some of the windows of my house are much closer to Sibley than many of the front doors of the Sibley residents so I hear the noise just as much as they do) and still have reasonable access to the day care facility and old town. Before anyone jumps down my throat at this suggestion, it's not one I think should be considered seriously. I tend to be opposed to street closures in general. This one I've been very vocal about because of the significant impact to my family and to my neighbors, who also use the same day care facility that I do.

Commuter traffic will always follow the path of least resistance. Closing the path in one area will only mean that this traffic will find a new path of least resistance, which may be through another residential neighborhood. Those of us who are opposed to this street closure are being asked to take into account how the residents of Sibley feel about the high volume of traffic. But what about the residents of the other neighborhoods that the commuter traffic may seek out? If we continue to try and focus creating traffic controls at this level of detail rather than the overall traffic issue, then I think that we will be creating more problems than we are solving. By closing streets to through traffic we disrupt access to local businesses and even local residents. We have also created a safety hazard by extending the response time of emergency response vehicles to the area that is impacted by the closed road. Doesn't a road closure have a more significant impact on response times than the implementation of speed bumps? After all, the emergency vehicles now have a greater distance to travel though higher volumes of traffic.

There has been talk of installing a light at Sibley and Glenn since I moved in 5 years ago. However, no light has been installed yet. Maybe if one was installed that helped to limit the amount of traffic on Sibley as I suggested earlier, the closure of Sibley might not need to be considered. I know that several people in this discussion group have worked hard at trying to come up with alternatives to this issue and many of these alternatives have been dismissed for various reasons. Closing Sibley did in fact provide the Sibley residents with the maximum result they were looking for. It was guaranteed to. No other solution would be able to do this. However, prior to closing Sibley, other options should have been more seriously considered and actually attempted before they were dismissed as not being a workable solution.

Please forgive my long responses. I guess that I tend to be as wordy in my writing as I am in my speaking. Basically I would really like to see
something done that would help to significantly reduce the speeding on Sibley, reduce the volume of traffic on Sibley, yet would still allow local residents to use this street as they needed for access to friends, family, and local businesses. Just because we haven't thought of something yet, doesn't mean that a more beneficial solution isn't out there and available to us.

[bordercolliefan]

Shadow, your point about traffic finding another "path of least resistance" is apt. In my efforts to avoid using Sibley, I find myself much more often using the strip of Coloma between E. Bidwell and Natoma, which is residential. I do this because sometimes when I reach E. Bidwell St. (traveling northbound on Riley), I can see that Riley is totally gridlocked with jr high traffic and bridge traffic -- and I realize that I will never get my kids to their school on time if I join the gridlock.

--I guess I shouldn't have revealed my new driving habits because now the City Council might come along and close that section of Coloma.

[anonymous]

border,
Sarcastic, childish and non productive comments should be kept to yourself.

[bordercolliefan]

Actually there is a long history of sarcasm and satire being used to make political and social points. Have you ever heard of Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal?" It is one of the most famous pieces of satire and sarcasm in the history of English literature, and it succeeded in drawing English attention to the plight of the Irish where numerous so-called "serious" essays had failed.

Obviously I do not claim to be Jonathan Swift -- but your suggestion that satire or sarcasm has no place in political debate is unfounded and ignorant.

I notice that you fail to address my main point -- i.e., the funneling of traffic away from Sibley onto other residential streets.

Perhaps you have no response to that... or perhaps you simply don't care about residents in neighborhoods other than your own.

[melloguy]

QUOTE (anonymous @ May 17 2004, 10:01 PM)

border, Sarcastic, childish and non productive comments should be kept to yourself.

Aargh! I wish Border would have kept that comment. It's the same cut through I use on a daily basis.

On our way through town last week, my wife and I had a discussion about the new and ever changing traffic patterns. It was while we were watching a driver use Kohl's for a change-of-direction, a move I had made just a week earlier, that we both agreed we felt like mice in a maze. And the cheese just keeps on moving.

I wonder where the next roadblock will be set up and when the next "underutilized" neighborhood street sees it flow double?

[melloguy]

Several additional questions...today is the 30th calendar day from the time of the closure, but only the 22nd weekday. Does anyone know if the closure will remain for another 8 weekdays, or is today the last day? And, what is the plan once the 30 days are up? Will they reopen and analyze the results, or is there some other plan?

[Pacoloco]

The problem was that the streets in question were "over utilized", not underutilized. In a span of three years the volume quadrupled. This in a neighborhood that simply doesn't have the basic infrastructure to handle so many commuters in such a small period of time.

I don't know how that small stretch of Coloma would be classified. There is a school along side, multiple businesses, a library, and about half a dozen homes. But, if the volume through this stretch of street was to increase to the point that if could no longer handle it, I would completely support any traffic calming measures the city would be willing to place.