343 replies to this topic

[ducky]

I don't know how to calculate the 166 feet of skid marks to get the 58 mph at impact, or the deceleration rates or crush analysis, but I'm sure the accident reconstructionists will be able to do that easily. Also, if the car was pushed further after impact tells you the speed may have been even higher.

I wonder what kind of distance is visible on the curve for the woman making the turn. If it requires some sort of superhuman vision and reaction time to see "alleged" racing cars before they come around a bend so you can commence a turn, I don't see how she could have comparative fault. (I added in the word alleged to make those in denial comfortable).

For example, I live on one of the residential streets people use as a freeway since the Dam Road was closed. Using the logic of those in denial, the only way I could back out of my driveway would be to post two people at the intersections to watch for those people who make California-stop right-hand turns at 40 mph to go down my street; otherwise, I'm to blame if they run into me because I was in the process of pulling forward and they were going too fast and couldn't stop before rear-ending me.

From the Bee article today, apparently, the evidence was enough for the judge to keep the teens in custody.

[Robert Giacometti]

On the contrary, those who are in denial are the ones with closed minds. They just can't fathom these boys racing, when witnesses saw it, the evidence suggests it, and the DA felt there was enough to file charges on.

Can't you be open to the possibility that the witnesses, police, and evidence could be right?

By the way, there is praise for at least one of the boys. An administrator at Bella Vista called him the 'most important student at school', or something like that.

What gives you the right to call people in denial? That is name calling pure & simple....one would hope a moderator wouldn't be calling others name or applying labels to someone who may have a different perspective from yours!

Where did the witnesses see the boys racing and going 60 to 80 mph at the accident scene or a mile or two from the accident? I feel this is an important fact...it is possible they were racing and driving recklessly before coming up to the accidents scene....then maybe they slowed down some (but possibly speeding 10 mph over the limit right before the accident). Its also possible they were going 60 mph or more as the police claim.

Does anybody know how the fast the kids claim they were going? Was anyone else in the cars what do they say?

Just because the police convince the DA to file charges doesn't make them guilty!

Something I just can't understand is if these 17 year olds ( senior in HS) are so dangerous to society why are they only being tried as juveniles?

I've got 2 kids at home and the last thing I want are 2 drivers on the road who are dangers to society. If indeed the kids were speeding excessively then they need to be held accountable!

[Steve Heard]

What gives you the right to call people in denial? That is name calling pure & simple....one would hope a moderator wouldn't be calling others name or applying labels to someone who may have a different perspective from yours!

Where did the witnesses see the boys racing and going 60 to 80 mph at the accident scene or a mile or two from the accident? I feel this is an important fact...it is possible they were racing and driving recklessly before coming up to the accidents scene....then maybe they slowed down some (but possibly speeding 10 mph over the limit right before the accident). Its also possible they were going 60 mph or more as the police claim.

Does anybody know how the fast the kids claim they were going? Was anyone else in the cars what do they say?

Just because the police convince the DA to file charges doesn't make them guilty!

Something I just can't understand is if these 17 year olds ( senior in HS) are so dangerous to society why are they only being tried as juveniles?

I've got 2 kids at home and the last thing I want are 2 drivers on the road who are dangers to society. If indeed the kids were speeding excessively then they need to be held accountable!

What gives me the right? Amendment 1 of the US Constitution.

Even if I didn't have that right, I could still recognize denial. From Dictionary.com 'Denial: An assertion that something said, believed, alleged, etc., is false: "Despite his denials, we kne"w he had taken the purse."

When people make statements like, "my son does not speed", and "there's no way those kids were going that fast", that is denial. That amounts to denial.

It's one thing to say 'let the justice system do it's job'. It's quite another to deny they did what they were accused of doing.

The best part of your reply describes my feelings, and the feelings of those who aren't in denial, "If indeed the kids were speeding excessively then they need to be held accountable."

That's all.

[Chad Vander Veen]

"Along with the suspects' family members, at least 20 teens came to juvenile court to support their friends. Outside after the hearing, as reporters asked some of them if they cared to comment, one of them yelled back an expletive."

**sigh** such stupidity.

http://www.news10.ne...x?storyid=23530

[FolsomBarb]

Read through the comments left by the SacBee readers pertaining to the article.....
http://www.sacbee.co...p;tie_to=110326

[Steve Heard]

From the SacBee

"The deputy district attorney pointed out that three vehicles, all driven by teenage friends, started out of a parking lot up the road, but as speeds started to increase, one driver held back because he knew it was dangerous. "Witnesses observed this and predicted what would happen," she said."

[FolsomBarb]

From the SacBee

"The deputy district attorney pointed out that three vehicles, all driven by teenage friends, started out of a parking lot up the road, but as speeds started to increase, one driver held back because he knew it was dangerous. "Witnesses observed this and predicted what would happen," she said."

I rest my case.

[FolsomBarb]

From the SacBee

"The deputy district attorney pointed out that three vehicles, all driven by teenage friends, started out of a parking lot up the road, but as speeds started to increase, one driver held back because he knew it was dangerous. "Witnesses observed this and predicted what would happen," she said."

Steve, I can't find the article with this quote...... can you provide a link? The article I'm looking at this morning doesn't have that paragraph......so there must be another article. I'd like to read it as well. Thanks!

[FolsomBarb]

Steve, I can't find the article with this quote...... can you provide a link? The article I'm looking at this morning doesn't have that paragraph......so there must be another article. I'd like to read it as well. Thanks!

Nevermind. I found it. It's in the News10.net article.....
http://www.news10.ne...x?storyid=23530

[crossski]

this is true- looking at a back issue of Sports Car International shows
braking distances of 60mph -0 at 120 ft
80mph -0 at 214 ft

http://www.stealth31.../sci91tt-p4.gif

with the measured skid marks of 170-190ft places the car most likely at 80mph
as car was not even close to a stop after the long skid marks measured.

With now the additional info of 'impact' of 58 mph and 'quoted skid marks of 166ft
places the Steath of requiring 166ft measured + 100-120ft( impact momentum existing
at 58 mph stopping distance) totaling somewhere greater than 200ft + to stop this
car had it not impacted another vehicle. Manufacturers specs require this from 80mph for
this vehicle.

[Steve Heard]

Nevermind. I found it. It's in the News10.net article.....
http://www.news10.ne...x?storyid=23530

My bad. I got my sources mixed up.

[folsombound]

My impression from the boy's attorney's, their friends and the parents comments is that they all think that these kids are innocent of any wrongdoing and should be let go and probable the public should replace his damaged car. I think the kids should be punished but unfortunately the California prison system doesn't teach lessons, it just creates career or lifetime criminals. Without a doubt the parents should be punished and since they are minors there is no doubt they will be held responsible financially. I think the kids should have driving revoked for at least 5 years after they spend some time in jail and spend about 5 years in community service, preferably working in something like a hospice. Folsom prison won't teach them anything other than how to be a bigger criminal. In addition, I don't want to pay for their rehab (taxes), I think their parents should.

[UnionBlondie16]

If they are let go (not saying that I think they should be or that is fair if they are), all of their liscenses should be suspended for a long time. Is that a possiblity? There's no way they should be able to get a car and start driving the day after they're found innocent.

[Robert Giacometti]

With now the additional info of 'impact' of 58 mph and 'quoted skid marks of 166ft
places the Steath of requiring 166ft measured + 100-120ft( impact momentum existing
at 58 mph stopping distance) totaling somewhere greater than 200ft + to stop this
car had it not impacted another vehicle. Manufacturers specs require this from 80mph for
this vehicle.

How are you able to determine the impact was at 58 mph?

Using the calculator and using the 166' length of skid marks it gives 58 mph. I take that to mean the car would have to be going 58 mph to leave 166' of skid marks. I still don't know how to calculate the fact the drivers side, rear tire, didn't lock up until about 2/3 into the skid.

I'm thinking if both tires don't lock up and one is actually turning...it probably affects the cars ability to stop.

I'll be interested in what the experts have to say about this. I can already anticipate two different experts giving conflicting testimony.

[MikeinFolsom]

Yeah, I doubt the impact was at +/- 60mph as well. The vehicle might have been travelling at greater speeds than that, but after slowing during the skidding, the vehicle might have been travelling at lower speed. But it doesn't take much when you bang in the door of the driver. When the people inside the vehicle are belted in and don't move much......well their internal organs still do and many, many times you see a detached aorta and that is what does them in. It might not be immediate, but with that artery leaking, it is almost impossible to stop, and people deteriorate quickly.