278 replies to this topic

[waterbaby149]

Damm straight -I won't vote for an incumbant and I will carefully screen the qualifications of those running
but why does there appear to be a "stedford condition" when they win election
I have read past informaiton on those who have ran and won - i.e. moran and king, and they get in office and they are puppets....
it makes me sick
and I stand up for what I believe and receive constant critizim
I mean look how long it took you to post camray ...
like i said when I read today what had happened I was sick
agree or not agree that's fine
but we have the right to vote

[billsfan]

waterbaby - as camay said, you have a right to vote for the council members to lead our city. Don't you entrust them to make decisions? Well you may have some sour grapes on them sticking to alleged campaign promises, but I believe it's better that they are making decision based on the facts of the issues presented at the time. I care more that they consider the issues and make educated choices.

Take the South of 50 Initiative. I read that the initiative had more support until the leaders added those pre-conditions on open space, widening 50, and water supply. It was no longer a "citizens choice" but a No growth initiative disguished as giving voter a choice...What a council member said in the previous election is that he supported the right for voters to vote on the development plan, not set a bunch of pre-conditions....

[Ahnold]

Well said billsfan and camay! We live in a republic, or 'representative democracy', not a 'true' democracy. the purpose of that is to rely a small number of educated, informed representatives to make major decisions of this nature for us, with our input. When they make decisions we don't like - then we replace them with people who will. The purpose of this system is, in part, to avoid making important decisions based strictly on 'mob' rule, which is susceptible to emotion and disinformation.

I don't necessarily support either of these growth initiatives but I fully support the right of Bob, Val, and their supporters to get two new council members on board to represent their interests. Bob in particular seems like a logical, reasonable man that could probably do well in an election - assuming there is in fact a constituency out there that agrees with his platform. THAT is the way our system of government was designed to work, at least according to my weathered old civics textbook!

How the initiative process got into that system of government I'm not sure, and I would happily accept any education on that topic.

[forumreader]

QUOTE (Ahnold @ Aug 21 2004, 05:10 AM)

Well said billsfan and camay!  We live in a republic, or 'representative democracy', not a 'true' democracy....   How the initiative process got into that system of government I'm not sure....

Very good points, Ahnold. A few months ago my husband and I were having a similar discussion regarding public participation in government, recalls, referenda, and the apparent movement toward a more direct democracy.

I've relocated an interesting little history lesson written by the U.S. Department of State. Following is the link.

Government of the People

The question that I have been pondering is how do we strike a balance between direct public participation in government/activism and a republican (representative) government? How do we prevent local, state and federal governments from becoming bogged-down with referenda & recalls? Public involvement is necessary and good, and much more practical in this information age. However, we should not dismiss the merits of a representative democracy. Theoretically we are electing informed officials whom we trust.

[user8]

Sat. Bee said that Judge Connelly threw out "T" or the "Fish initiative" . Any thoughts or is there another post I'm missing.

[valdossjoyce]

From Sacramento Business Journal: online edition.

LATEST NEWS
August 20, 2004

Judge scraps Folsom ballot measure to limit growth

A judge on Friday scrapped an initiative slated for the November ballot that would have given Folsom residents greater control of development south of Highway 50.


The decision by Sacramento Superior Court Judge Lloyd Connelly eases the way for development in the city's 3,584-acre sphere of influence area south of Folsom's current city limits at the highway. He agreed with the plaintiffs in the case -- four Folsom residents with business and government connections -- that the ballot measure was incorrectly drafted and omitted necessary language.

The initiative would have required that:

Any pre-zoning or rezoning of the area south of the highway be approved by the city's voters, rather than the City Council alone

The land remain in agricultural zoning until the electorate approves a development plan for the area that protects habitat and keeps half of the land in agricultural use

Development be put on hold until Highway 50 is widened to handle traffic from the tract's development, and

A citywide vote for development south of the freeway to use the existing city water supply

The lawsuit to block the initiative was filed by a group of four Folsom residents, represented by attorneys Bob Holderness and Chuck Bell. Holderness, a former Folsom mayor, has represented the interests of Angelo Tsakopoulos's AKT Development Corp., the primary landowner in the south area.

Connelly agreed with the suit's argument that the initiative was drafted incorrectly, in that it did not include information on the Agricultural Element of Sacramento County's general plan. The initiative stated that the preservation of agricultural land south of Highway 50 would be consistent with the element, but did not include it, explained Sara Myers, one of the backers of the initiative and a former Folsom city councilwoman.

David Mogavero, a spokesman for the Environmental Council of Sacramento, which supported the initiative, said the group will redraft the initiative for a later ballot. The petition for the measure was signed my some 4,400 Folsom voters, double the number required.



© 2004 American City Business Journals Inc.

[Chad Vander Veen]

Weren't writers of the initative specifically advised to make sure the language was correct?

Geez, we Folsomites do not seem to be very thorough with our grassroots efforts.

[slowthegrowth]

"The lawsuit to block the initiative was filed by a group of four Folsom residents..."

Anyone know who these 4 are? If they're elected officials, I'd like to do what I can to be sure they don't get re-elected.

[cybertrano]

QUOTE (slowthegrowth @ Aug 23 2004, 08:05 AM)

"The lawsuit to block the initiative was filed by a group of four Folsom residents..." Anyone know who these 4 are? If they're elected officials, I'd like to do what I can to be sure they don't get re-elected.

I recalled that they are some business leaders.

Sad.

[waterbaby149]

Folsom Blondie - it is my understanding that when a petition is submitted it is approved by the city clerk and city attorney for format and content.......

it is my understanding that one radio station in commenting on this situation stated: the business men of Folsom are breathing better now......

the article if quoted correctly by Val states that the power of decision was taken from the city council and given to the people ..... on the south of 50

as stated before we appear not to have trust in our cc members and their decision making process - therefore - yes the answer is to vote them out of office - it would appear that this problem is also existing in El Dorado County - we vote for our members with a certain amount of trust - but our voice is denied which is a constitutional right - it makes u wonder when this happens whether or not the tea party was worth it.....

Yes I can vote, do vote, and will vote, but where is the accountablity from our governmental representatives ......
and can appreciate that they educate themselves on issues as Keri appears to.... but when they use the system against the very people they are suppose to represent
it will be interesting to see what happens when the bull dozers move on the park and then on the other side of 50 - I know from people that have stopped me and asked about the park situation how upset they are - and they now ask what they can do.....
how much more are we going to let these people get away with....

[waterbaby149]

one of the people that brought the court action was "not in my backyard" Holderness - the other I understand is Richard Gray who runs an antique business on Sutter Street, and was formerly employed by the City of Folsom ....

[EDF]

We ran up against the "big boys"... part of the machine politics of the Folsom City Hall Crowd...The fix was in... I always thought Lloyd Connelly was a decent judge even though he was a Democrat through and through... in fact all of the major players are big time Dems... I guess I'm just cynical...

If you ever go to a City Council meeting, the usual suspects are always there... in fact Holderness will be there schmoozing with his buds on the city council while he works another deal for a developer client at the next cc meeting...

Another one of the so called citizens against our initiative, Mr. Kemp, is a partner with Angelo babe, the majority owner of the land south of 50...

Bob Holdnerses, a former city councilman and mayor is just doing the usual "cashing in" after the years as a politician... I can't blame him and he has every right to do that... but don't come at me with the jive that this is supposed to be better for us...

The only choice we have now is to elect new city council people and hopefully they won't renege on their promises...

I guess we can take some credit for forcing the City to place their own initiative on the ballot which will give us something to refer to in the future if they decide to play games...

[cybertrano]

QUOTE (EDF @ Aug 23 2004, 09:06 AM)

I guess we can take some credit for forcing the City to place their own initiative on the ballot which will give us something to refer to in the future if they decide to play games...

Very good point!!!!!

[valdossjoyce]

Thank you for adding insult to injury. Grass roots efforts depend on a cadre of volunteers, strong leaders with organizational skills and lots of time on their hands. It also helps to have a war chest of money to hire political consultants and expers attorneys early on, especially when going up against city hall AND developers.

The language was drafted carefully, re-drafted many times, but received only cursory legal review by attorneys knowledgeable in election law because of timing deadlines. Hindsight is great. We'll not make the same mistakes again.

We are saddened by the result and apologize to the other volunteers who worked so hard to gather signatures.

However, we did not mislead voters who signed the initiative.

Please note, Judge Connelly labored over the arguments of both sides over three court sessions in which he asked many, many questions (in addition to the briefs that were filed and the respective attorneys' oral arguments); only then did he render his decision that the language stating that agricultural use "consistent with" the County General Plan meant the Plan should have been set forth verbatim in the initiative. This was a close enough call, it could have gone either way.

This is not at all like the Roseville initiative in which they erred in neglecting to include a specific statement required to appear on all initiatives by a recent change in legislation. In that case, the error was so clear that the judge ruled on the briefs alone.

There is a small victory in all of this. Just as in my other past efforts to persuade the city council on a particular issue, while we didn't get what we wanted, we will get something far better than we otherwise would have gotten had we done nothing at all. The city's initiative, with all its flaws, does make some promises that are now on the record. Any future bait-and-switch will be highly visible to the electorate.


Sayonara, adios, dusveedanya, au revoire, alveeduzain, ciao----untll the next visioning thing.

[slowthegrowth]

"Thank you for adding insult to injury..... The language was drafted carefully, re-drafted many times, but received only cursory legal review by attorneys knowledgeable in election law because of timing deadlines. Hindsight is great. We'll not make the same mistakes again.

We are saddened by the result and apologize to the other volunteers who worked so hard to gather signatures.

However, we did not mislead voters who signed the initiative."

Don't mistake frustration with insults. There are those who signed the initiative that trusted that those offering it for signature had their ducks aligned, "t"s crossed and "i"s dotted. We thought this was "the good fight" and were ready to back the initiative to the end.

To get that excited about trying to do "the right thing" and then find out that it was thrown out because of preventable errors, frustation happens.