379 replies to this topic

[billsfan]

Chad, you keep missing the point. We're not saying that there are no benefits, just that we're not ready to bend over to corporate welfare at its highest. It can be done better, with or without the Maloofs/Kings.

Your passionately flawed belief is that this can't possibly be done any other way, and you're buying into the spin that says the deal is awesome. Look deeper.

I would love the Kings to stay but this type of one-sided dealmaking where the government officials are charmed by the lobbyists and spin doctors, then their ability to levy taxes is leveraged to eliminate risk that normally goes with business investments -- this has got to stop.
I thought about that but, aside from the fact that we don't have a gazillion dollars to hand over, I'm certain they won't even return John's phone call

I really think this is the last chance since the Kings & Gov officials will not be that incented to work out another deal if this doesn't pass. So you want Sacramento to be the poster city for fighting against using public funding, when many other cities have done so. Picture Sacramento in 10 years then - no NBA team or Arena for events, but we sure showed the rich owners that our town cannot be messed with. And all these other cities and organizations (who won't be bringing their conventions/busineeses here) will look up to that great noble city of Sacramento...Way to go sheriff...

[Steve Heard]

A funny thing happened. Several people I know have asked me about buying properties in the general area of the railyard, planning on rehabbing them, knowing that once the arena is built, they will be very desirable.

[Chad Vander Veen]

Really? How?

I think you and others truly, deeply, underestimate the value of this facility. And, I think you are somehow unable to conceive of the benefits that don't include dollar signs. The intangibles are what are important here.

hate being at the bottom of the previous page

[benning]

I really think this is the last chance since the Kings & Gov officials will not be that incented to work out another deal if this doesn't pass. So you want Sacramento to be the poster city for fighting against using public funding, when many other cities have done so. Picture Sacramento in 10 years then - no NBA team or Arena for events, but we sure showed the rich owners that our town cannot be messed with. And all these other cities and organizations (who won't be bringing their conventions/busineeses here) will look up to that great noble city of Sacramento...Way to go sheriff...

thanks! Although I prefer the term martyr

A funny thing happened. Several people I know have asked me about buying properties in the general area of the railyard, planning on rehabbing them, knowing that once the arena is built, they will be very desirable.

That's the normal course of action, is a good thing, and is one of the intangable benefits that Chad was talking about. Now if we can only get taxpayer money to subsidize our speculative purchase since we don't know when or if it will be built.

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[Robert Giacometti]

The Las Vegas threat is very real. People don't drive from SF to watch the Kings; they have their marvelous Golden State Warriors. Over 550k people live in Las Vegas proper and 1.5 in the county. Those are just the permanment residents. Over 39 million visit each year and those people are just looking for entertainment on which they will spend their money. Las Vegas only has UNLV. There will be plenty of residents supporting their home team and plenty of others who will travel to Las Vegas to see their team play. I know this because I am already planning a trip to LV in Sept 2007 to watch the Wisconsin Badgers play there.

The Kings arena will benefit the whole region, it's not just about the Maloofs. The new arena and subsequent development will employ a lot of people. It will bring more culture to the region, too.

Again, how do I know these things? I am in the beginning stages of trying to duplicate Madison's Concerts on the Square here, but the Maloofs are the only ones (that I see) who have the money to help get this off of the ground the first year. I have been waiting three years for an arena deal to be sealed so I may approach them. If we don't give to them, they aren't going to give to our city.

Concerts on the Square draw 40k people to the Capitol Square EACH week for six weeks in the summer. The Madison Chamber Orchestra performs for free on the Capitol steps and 40k peoplef rom around the Madison region -- not just people who live in Madison proper -- sit on the lawn enjoying the family-focused cultural event. These people buy dinners, shop at the stores and shower money to the retail establishments around, basically showing that the downtown Capitol/gov't area is a place to be once the gov't workers leave. If there's no arena deal, I won't be moving forward with this. And I'm just some little lay-person who's thinking of starting a non-profit. I'd bet money that there are plenty of people with money waiting to be spent on the region once an arena passes.

Cw68,

At one time there was an agreement in place that professional Sports teams will NOT locate in Nevada. I'm sure one can understand why. I've heard other NBA owners speak out in oppostion to having NBA team in Las Vegas. Of course this doesn't guarantee that it will always be this way.

This is Sacramento NOT Madison. There is a huge difference in weather...how many people would be willing to sit in 110 degree weather for a concert? Cities in our region all ready have concert in the parks throught the region. Try as hard as you can but you aren't going to change the culture of Sacramento to be like Madison. Realistically, the majority of the people who will be supporting this tax are doing so for the Kings...they might say they are doing it for all the right reasons and are supportive of your vision. Once they get what they want your cause won't be so worthy!

I've been around Folsom for 17 years now....those of us who have heard this same song and dance routine from the powers to be about spending tax dollars for private ventures are probably a little more skeptical than the rest of you.

I'm just curious how are you going to feel when the powers to be use your tax dollars to help locate a Wal Mart SuperCenter downtown? What...... you say that can't happen! I thought and said the same thing in the past! Ask around....ask those who have been around who have been burned by these deals....why are they opposed to doing this?

Don't throw away your tax dollars when you don't need to!

[Chad Vander Veen]

I'm just curious how are you going to feel when the powers to be use your tax dollars to help locate a Wal Mart SuperCenter downtown? What...... you say that can't happen! I thought and said the same thing in the past! Ask around....ask those who have been around who have been burned by these deals....why are they opposed to doing this?

Don't throw away your tax dollars when you don't need to!

But Robert, you seemed so concerned about the undue hardship the 1/4 cent tax would place on the poor, yet you also oppose a retailer that can provide those same poor with quality goods at low prices?

[benning]

But Robert, you seemed so concerned about the undue hardship the 1/4 cent tax would place on the poor, yet you also oppose a retailer that can provide those same poor with quality goods at low prices?

Nice try. He doesn't oppose the retailer, just the SUBSIDY.

(it's just me butting in again....)

[Chad Vander Veen]

BY the way, here's a ticket price chart - as you can see, you people arguing the poor can't afford to go are completely wrong

[benning]

You're joking, right? Poor people can't even afford the parking for this place. The working poor couldn't afford it -- two seats in the nosebleed section + parking is more than $100. These people take home about a thousand dollars per month, assuming they work 40 hours a week. That represents 10% of their monthly income under circumstances where their housing costs are probably well over 60% of their monthly income.

This is assuming they're not raising the prices which of course the city has no say over under this deal.

By the way, I personally don't think everyone needs access to everything, even subsidized things. I would have bet you were being facetious if I didn't know your position so well on this topic. My bad if I misinterpreted

[cw68]

Cw68,

At one time there was an agreement in place that professional Sports teams will NOT locate in Nevada. I'm sure one can understand why. I've heard other NBA owners speak out in oppostion to having NBA team in Las Vegas. Of course this doesn't guarantee that it will always be this way.

This is Sacramento NOT Madison. There is a huge difference in weather...how many people would be willing to sit in 110 degree weather for a concert? Cities in our region all ready have concert in the parks throught the region. Try as hard as you can but you aren't going to change the culture of Sacramento to be like Madison. Realistically, the majority of the people who will be supporting this tax are doing so for the Kings...they might say they are doing it for all the right reasons and are supportive of your vision. Once they get what they want your cause won't be so worthy!

I've been around Folsom for 17 years now....those of us who have heard this same song and dance routine from the powers to be about spending tax dollars for private ventures are probably a little more skeptical than the rest of you.

I'm just curious how are you going to feel when the powers to be use your tax dollars to help locate a Wal Mart SuperCenter downtown? What...... you say that can't happen! I thought and said the same thing in the past! Ask around....ask those who have been around who have been burned by these deals....why are they opposed to doing this?

Don't throw away your tax dollars when you don't need to!

Sacramento is more like Madison than you think. Outside concerts are all about timing and of course they wouldn't be held during the high heat of summer. You wouldn't find me in a park in the middle of January back in Madison, but I do go to them here at the same time.

If I thought that locating a WalMart SuperCenter downtown was beneficial to the region, I'd support it even if I didn't shop there. Just like I'm supporting an arena but don't watch the Kings.

[Steve Heard]

Do you agree that the railyard area is blighted, wasted land with lots of potential, close to downtown?
Do you agree that redevelopment of the area would be good for Sacramento?
Do you understand that properties in the surrounding area will become more valuable and that people will invest in the area?
Do you agree that a venue for sports, music, conventions and other events would draw visitors to the area?
Do you agree that all of this growth, development and visitng will result in more dollars being spent, employing people, putting tax dollars into the coffers, enabling the city to fund much needed programs?

Isn't it worth .25% sales tax increase to get that?

What does it matter that the Maloofs are involved?
What does it matter that it's only a game played by millionaires?

In the words of Arnold the Great, "I say 'build it'"

[Steve Heard]

You're joking, right? Poor people can't even afford the parking for this place. The working poor couldn't afford it -- two seats in the nosebleed section + parking is more than $100. These people take home about a thousand dollars per month, assuming they work 40 hours a week. That represents 10% of their monthly income under circumstances where their housing costs are probably well over 60% of their monthly income.

This is assuming they're not raising the prices which of course the city has no say over under this deal.

By the way, I personally don't think everyone needs access to everything, even subsidized things. I would have bet you were being facetious if I didn't know your position so well on this topic. My bad if I misinterpreted

What difference does it make if the poor can't afford to go? This isn't about the affordability of games.

The place will sell out every night.

The poor will benefit from the additional dollars spent by visitors. They will benefit by getting jobs at the arena, and maybe some of them won't be poor anymore.

Take a look at SF and SJC. Both have stadiums/arenas in areas which were formerly blighted and which are now thriving.

When the Sharks went on strike, downtown businesses suffered in San Jose, because people who attend sporting events pour money into the local economy.

When you look at the China Basin area of San Francisco, you see old warehouses that have been converted into shops, galleries, and restaurants. New condos have been built. Public transportation ridership is up.

I sat in my car on the Embarcadero two weekends ago and watched thousands walking down the street, filling shops and restaurants.

Forget that Barry Bonds is a steroid using jerk millionaire playing a game that some people don't like in a stadium that some can't afford to attend. The stadium benefits the city.

[tgianco]

Forget that Barry Bonds is a steroid using jerk millionaire playing a game that some people don't like in a stadium that some can't afford to attend. The stadium benefits the city.

Alleged.

[mylo]

BY the way, here's a ticket price chart - as you can see, you people arguing the poor can't afford to go are completely wrong

I'm not poor, and I can't afford to go. Well, I guess I *could* pay to go, but the entertainment just isn't worth the cost. Value-wise, I think there are other cheaper propositions that could provide equivilent revitalization to the region, low cost arts and entertainment, at equal or less expense to the taxpayers. My beef is why we're so stuck on the Kings. Is there really no other sports venue that is looking for a new arena and willing to throw in the cash to support it?

[Robert Giacometti]

But Robert, you seemed so concerned about the undue hardship the 1/4 cent tax would place on the poor, yet you also oppose a retailer that can provide those same poor with quality goods at low prices?

Where did I say I oppose this retailer? I was asking CW how she would feel if the tax increase goes to a Walmart Superstore?

There are NO guarantees where or how this tax money can be spent and there are no guarantees how &/or where the tax money is supposed to comes back to the community is supposed to be spent....if it comes back.

I guess having the politicians attempt to misrepresent how much the Maloofs contribuition is upfront doesn't give me that warm & fuzzy feeling that this is the best deal possible. If you and others want to believe this is the best deal possible, after the politicians misled you, who am I to try and convince you otherwise.

Let me ask a real simple question to everyone....If there was a better deal for the citizens would you take it or stay with this one?

Hey when is the next poker game.....I might as well take some before the Maloofs get it all!