252 replies to this topic

[Dave Burrell]

Have any of you actually driven by the scene and looked at everything with your own eyes? Dave, have you been back? I'm not judging, but it's kind of hard to have a detailed breakdown of what happened seeing it through your rearview mirror not to mention you were more concerned with cleaning your shorts out. I live right there. I see the scene every single day. I judged right off the bat. I am always harping on my wife to pay attention at that intersection. It was too easy for me to automatcially assume somebody ran the red and t-boned somebody pulling out of the neighborhood. I am disappointed in myself for judging. Now that I have looked at the scene and all of the reminants, I can tell you that the major "accident" was a result of a previous accident. This lady in the Mercedes wrecked about 200 feet before the intersection. She hit the median divider head on. With a car that has no ground clearance, you can clearly deduce that it blew her entire front end up. Blew her steering out, severed her brake line and blew her headlights out. Without brakes, her car continues to travel eastbound. With her left front wheel totally ruined and probebly pointing to the left, her car tended toward the left. You can see all of the fluids still on the roadway. Once the center divide stopped, the car bared left right into the path of the oncoming traffic. I'm not excusing her and I have no idea why she hit the median to begin with, but let's use a little good judgement here when you're wishing death on someone.

I live nearby too and travel by that area daily. I haven't noticed any major chunks of the medium missing from a dead on hit that would have taken out the entire front end of a car, but I will go look tomorrow, where is this at? near Woodsmoke or back more towards Creekside?

This is a good theory you have, it could make sense of this crazy situation. Several witnesses did say they saw her swerve into the medium earlier so that adds to this theory

Just for the record, being almost hit, then hearing the impact and seeing a car rolling in my rear view mirror happened .. that's all the detailed breakdown I needed at the time. I'll leave the determination of the cause up to the professionals, the Folsom PD - who closed off the area and investigated the scene the entire night, hopefully we'll hear the results soon.
They have already confirmed the only theory I had, drugs and/or alcohol were involved (in this case both). IMO it doesn't matter if this was the 2nd or 3rd accident in a row that she had on her way to the finale that I witnessed, she should not have been driving under the influence - period.

One last note, that wasn't me who wished death on anyone, hope that note wasn't directed at me

[sunnyCA]

I live nearby too and travel by that area daily. I haven't noticed any major chunks of the medium missing from a dead on hit that would have taken out the entire front end of a car, but I will go look tomorrow, where is this at? near Woodsmoke or back more towards Creekside?

This is a good theory you have, it could make sense of this crazy situation. Several witnesses did say they saw her swerve into the medium earlier so that adds to this theory

Just for the record, being almost hit, then hearing the impact and seeing a car rolling in my rear view mirror happened .. that's all the detailed breakdown I needed at the time. I'll leave the determination of the cause up to the professionals, the Folsom PD - who closed off the area and investigated the scene the entire night, hopefully we'll hear the results soon.
They have already confirmed the only theory I had, drugs and/or alcohol were involved (in this case both). IMO it doesn't matter if this was the 2nd or 3rd accident in a row that she had on her way to the finale that I witnessed, she should not have been driving under the influence - period.
One last note, that wasn't me who wished death on anyone, hope that note wasn't directed at me

Yes, that is the bottom line...you don't drive on vicodin, you don't drive after drinking. You just don't because you are risking your life, your passengers' lives, and the lives of everyone else on the road with you.

[bv1016]

Have any of you actually driven by the scene and looked at everything with your own eyes? Dave, have you been back? I'm not judging, but it's kind of hard to have a detailed breakdown of what happened seeing it through your rearview mirror not to mention you were more concerned with cleaning your shorts out. I live right there. I see the scene every single day. I judged right off the bat. I am always harping on my wife to pay attention at that intersection. It was too easy for me to automatcially assume somebody ran the red and t-boned somebody pulling out of the neighborhood. I am disappointed in myself for judging. Now that I have looked at the scene and all of the reminants, I can tell you that the major "accident" was a result of a previous accident. This lady in the Mercedes wrecked about 200 feet before the intersection. She hit the median divider head on. With a car that has no ground clearance, you can clearly deduce that it blew her entire front end up. Blew her steering out, severed her brake line and blew her headlights out. Without brakes, her car continues to travel eastbound. With her left front wheel totally ruined and probebly pointing to the left, her car tended toward the left. You can see all of the fluids still on the roadway. Once the center divide stopped, the car bared left right into the path of the oncoming traffic. I'm not excusing her and I have no idea why she hit the median to begin with, but let's use a little good judgement here when you're wishing death on someone.

I think it's odd that you determined what happened based onthe "surroundings" not having seen the accident or the aftermath itself. Yet you judge Dave for seeing it in his rearview...

Also, form what I remember of Daves initial post, he saw the woman coming prior to entering the intersection, which is why he was compelled to speed up and get the hell out of the way... he didn't note that he saw her bouncing off medians, just speeding towards him, making a turn on a red light.. Wouldn't she have been riding the median, and potentially slowing down or bouncing off it? My point is, he didn't make a determination based soley on what he "thinks" he saw in his rearview... so many details were in front of him, before the actual collision behind him.

I am trying not to pass judgment, I have heard what the OP said he saw, and from there whatever will be will be... but to drive by an intersection and completely determine what happened based on how it looks one afternoon, makes no sense.

Need less to say, if something went wrong... to cause her to lose control, and the accident with the Durango was a result of whatever went wrong initially... It will all come down to if she was in any way intoxicated, if so, she blew it, and if she wasn't and this was a complete accident... it will come out eventually.

[Mr. H]

I think it's odd that you determined what happened based onthe "surroundings" not having seen the accident or the aftermath itself. Yet you judge Dave for seeing it in his rearview...

Also, form what I remember of Daves initial post, he saw the woman coming prior to entering the intersection, which is why he was compelled to speed up and get the hell out of the way... he didn't note that he saw her bouncing off medians, just speeding towards him, making a turn on a red light.. Wouldn't she have been riding the median, and potentially slowing down or bouncing off it? My point is, he didn't make a determination based soley on what he "thinks" he saw in his rearview... so many details were in front of him, before the actual collision behind him.

I am trying not to pass judgment, I have heard what the OP said he saw, and from there whatever will be will be... but to drive by an intersection and completely determine what happened based on how it looks one afternoon, makes no sense.

Need less to say, if something went wrong... to cause her to lose control, and the accident with the Durango was a result of whatever went wrong initially... It will all come down to if she was in any way intoxicated, if so, she blew it, and if she wasn't and this was a complete accident... it will come out eventually.

I didn't "drive by an intersection"...I live right there. Yes I was there looking at the aftermath of the accident while they were cleaning up. Yes I do walk my dogs by it everyday. Go out, park your car at the dentist's office there and walk around. You will see it all.

No Dave, the comments were not directed at you, just the entire situation in general.

The center divide starts and stops. It starts just at the peak of the hill right after Woodsmoke if you are travelling Eastbound (that's towards 50 from Folsom).

My point is, before anyone should pass judgement on what happened, put your self behind the wheel. Let's say you are driving the speedlimit which I believe is 45 mph right there. You hit a center divide which sticks up about 10-12 inches. Do you think your car is just gonna high center and ride the median? I doubt it. It's probably gonna jump, bounce you out of your seat, possibly cause whiplash and MAYBE even force your foot down on the accelerator as the body's natural reaction to the jolt.

AGAIN, I'm not making any excuses for the lady. ESPECIALLY if she was in FACT DUI of any substance regardless of what it is. I'm just more or less addressing the theory that she was driving 70 miles an hour, ran the red light and turned into oncoming traffic. Sounds pretty cut and dried, but I can gaurantee you that is not the case.

[Dave Burrell]

I didn't "drive by an intersection"...I live right there. Yes I was there looking at the aftermath of the accident while they were cleaning up. Yes I do walk my dogs by it everyday. Go out, park your car at the dentist's office there and walk around. You will see it all.

No Dave, the comments were not directed at you, just the entire situation in general.

The center divide starts and stops. It starts just at the peak of the hill right after Woodsmoke if you are travelling Eastbound (that's towards 50 from Folsom).

My point is, before anyone should pass judgement on what happened, put your self behind the wheel. Let's say you are driving the speedlimit which I believe is 45 mph right there. You hit a center divide which sticks up about 10-12 inches. Do you think your car is just gonna high center and ride the median? I doubt it. It's probably gonna jump, bounce you out of your seat, possibly cause whiplash and MAYBE even force your foot down on the accelerator as the body's natural reaction to the jolt.

AGAIN, I'm not making any excuses for the lady. ESPECIALLY if she was in FACT DUI of any substance regardless of what it is. I'm just more or less addressing the theory that she was driving 70 miles an hour, ran the red light and turned into oncoming traffic. Sounds pretty cut and dried, but I can gaurantee you that is not the case.

Are you insinuating that I am passing judgement on the driver or saw things inaccurately? Am I reading your posts wrong? Sorry if so, but it does seem like your messages are directed at me, especially with that condescending snarky comment that "I was too busy cleaning my shorts".

It was dark out there when this happened (with street lights on), I didn't see any sparks from her hitting the medium, but as noted numerous times already, several witnesses did say they saw her hit the medium prior to the big accident, we already know and acknowledge that happened.

I'm done posting on this subject, all I'm going to say is when you see a car speeding towards you with no lights on and it's about to turn in front of you, it's hard not to think there is something seriously wrong with that driver.

I'm not really sure why you are ripping on me, but seriously, what does it matter if the final crash was caused by earlier erratic driving that may have caused damage to her car? That driver screwed up the minute she started the car while under the influence WITH children in the car.

[supermom]

Nor would it excuse the driver from not stopping at the time she hit the divider and take account of how serious her situation was. I hate to assume that the person may have been too inebriated (without confirmation) to have sound judgement.

If you hit a a median - moments later would you:

A) drive 70 MPH in a (40?) city street (with a blown out front tire?-doubt that theory)

or

B) Pull your vehicle over to the right, stop, get out, assess damages, check on your kids, call the hubby for help and then the tow truck or insurance and police--(insurance won't pay out with public property damages without a PD report)


I don't know--crazy how some people respond in an emergency--

[Mr. H]

Are you insinuating that I am passing judgement on the driver or saw things inaccurately? Am I reading your posts wrong? Sorry if so, but it does seem like your messages are directed at me, especially with that condescending snarky comment that "I was too busy cleaning my shorts".

It was dark out there when this happened (with street lights on), I didn't see any sparks from her hitting the medium, but as noted numerous times already, several witnesses did say they saw her hit the medium prior to the big accident, we already know and acknowledge that happened.

I'm done posting on this subject, all I'm going to say is when you see a car speeding towards you with no lights on and it's about to turn in front of you, it's hard not to think there is something seriously wrong with that driver.

I'm not really sure why you are ripping on me, but seriously, what does it matter if the final crash was caused by earlier erratic driving that may have caused damage to her car? That driver screwed up the minute she started the car while under the influence WITH children in the car.

Read the post again Bud. "No Dave, the comments were not directed at you...."

Funny how touchy everyone gets. Nobody is pointing any fingers or calling anyone names. Just read the entire post before you respond half-cocked.

Again...Not directed at you DavBurr.

[Mr. H]

How does living near there and seeing the aftermath later have any bearing on what happened or what was seen by the people who were involved? You make it sound like the witnesses were lying about what they saw. Why is that? Are you the Mercedes drivers lawyer? If you had heard the police reports you would know she was in fact DUI, she was on Vicodin and admitted drinking and her husband said three hours before the accident she said she felt like she was going to pass out, and she drove and he let her drive and you see what resulted. Yes, being hopped up on drugs and alcohol can lead to someone passing out and hitting a center divider and messing up a tire causing the car to turn, but it doesn't excuse the driver of those actions whatsoever, no matter what you think the witnesses did or did not see.

Ha ha! No lawyer here. I have watched and read all of the reports, yes I know her husband said she was on Vicodin, yes I saw FPD's interview saying alcohol was involved. I feel that if she was DUI (not factual yet) then yes, she should suffer some severe consequences. I never excused the lady and I said that 3 or 4 times already.

You ask how does living near and seeing the aftermath have any bearing on what happened...again, I invite you to go look at the scene. And the next time you are driving 40-45, actually imagine yourself hitting the median. Ask yourself "what whould happen if I hit the center divide right now?". 45 is pretty dang fast when you look at it in that light. (I did on my way to work the morning after).

[ducky]

Read the post again Bud. "No Dave, the comments were not directed at you...."

Funny how touchy everyone gets. Nobody is pointing any fingers or calling anyone names. Just read the entire post before you respond half-cocked.

Again...Not directed at you DavBurr.

I read your entire post and I thought your "shorts" comment was a little rude. Davburr was just pointing out he never wished death on anyone. I don't think that is responding half-cocked.

I've seen people hit medians before, but I've never seen anyone do it and travel 200 feet and turn left. They usually bounce off to the right and roll to a stop even if they no longer have control of the car anymore.

I guess the point is we can all play accident reconstructionist on the forum here, but the real guys can tear apart all our speculations with equations based on facts about vehicle weights, speeds, coefficients of frictions, Delta Vs, etc., from the scene and the damage inflicted on the vehicles. If there was an under-the-influence factor involved or if the kids weren't properly seat-belted, then the why it happened would be more important than the mechanics of the accident IMHO.

[Howdy]

Let's say you are driving the speedlimit which I believe is 45 mph right there. You hit a center divide which sticks up about 10-12 inches. Do you think your car is just gonna high center and ride the median? I doubt it.

What part of your car hits the center divide? Rim and tire? Inside or outside of the tire? The middle of the car? Part of the suspension? I have actually seen a vehicle high centered on the center divide at the intersection of East Bidwell and Blue Ravine, so I don't doubt it like you do.

[Dave Burrell]

The center divide starts and stops. It starts just at the peak of the hill right after Woodsmoke if you are travelling Eastbound (that's towards 50 from Folsom).

You hit a center divide which sticks up about 10-12 inches. Do you think your car is just gonna high center and ride the median? I doubt it. It's probably gonna jump, bounce you out of your seat, possibly cause whiplash and MAYBE even force your foot down on the accelerator as the body's natural reaction to the jolt.

I looked at the entire medium yesterday and there is no damage at all to it other then one small rubber tire mark (which is common to see when someone veers into it slightly).

There are no heavy marks and zero cement damage anywhere proving that a car drove into it head on or drove up over it and had a "first" accident that destroyed it's entire front end to wipe out it's lights, steering, accelerator, brakes or anything like that. If anything, it may have knocked her wheel slightly out of alignment...but that won't destroy steering capability.

There is one small rubber mark where a tire rubbed up against it and that's it.... which goes with the story that she swerved into the median prior to the accident - it does not appear in any way that she went up and over it and wiped out her entire front end as claimed.

[SunshineServices]

Hmmmmm

Methinks Mr H is intimately involved, somehow. Definitely not a casual bystander.

Dave, glad you are ok, sorry you had to witness that, and then defend yourself here on the forum.

Crazy newbies.

jeff

[supermom]

What part of your car hits the center divide? Rim and tire? Inside or outside of the tire? The middle of the car? Part of the suspension? I have actually seen a vehicle high centered on the center divide at the intersection of East Bidwell and Blue Ravine, so I don't doubt it like you do.

oi, I saw a car on E. Bidwell and Blue Ravine that was stuck on the Median. Made the turn, and missed the lane--ended up on the median --completely railed the car (ehich means driving way to fast, also).

I think that car has a busted axle, water cooler, tranny pan and few other breaks. Not a pretty sight.

It is one hundred percent possible in a low car to total it, by railing it on a median. (skateboarding stunts for cars are expensive!! ha ha ha)

But, from the person who witnessed the accident I would assume that the driver hit the median beside her car, rather than in front, so that would be more like tire, frame and possible door damage.

Ofcoarse, how to prove that when moments later the driver squished the car under an SUV?

[Mr. H]

I looked at the entire medium yesterday and there is no damage at all to it other then one small rubber tire mark (which is common to see when someone veers into it slightly).

There are no heavy marks and zero cement damage anywhere proving that a car drove into it head on or drove up over it and had a "first" accident that destroyed it's entire front end to wipe out it's lights, steering, accelerator, brakes or anything like that. If anything, it may have knocked her wheel slightly out of alignment...but that won't destroy steering capability.

There is one small rubber mark where a tire rubbed up against it and that's it.... which goes with the story that she swerved into the median prior to the accident - it does not appear in any way that she went up and over it and wiped out her entire front end as claimed.

Tell you what, I will go out there today and take pictures of it for you. There is huge chunk taken out of it at the very beginning. Didn't you see all of the orange paint marking the median up from the investigation?

Hmmmmm

Methinks Mr H is intimately involved, somehow. Definitely not a casual bystander.

Dave, glad you are ok, sorry you had to witness that, and then defend yourself here on the forum.

Crazy newbies.

jeff

Not quite. The only thing I am intimate with is that intersection. I've seen way too many people speeding through AND running the red light. Funny though.