627 replies to this topic

[Parizienne]

I am extremely disappointed in what I've read here.

Yes, I am a teacher, and I agree that FCUSD is a good place to work, and I should also mention that I am new to living in this area.

What disappoints me is the attitude expressed here by community members that teachers shouldn't want any more than what they're offered, and that the District appears to have no interest in the negotiations process. The lack of willingness to engage in reasonable dialogue is unprofessional and effectively diminishes the reputation of the Folsom-Cordova Unified School District because of the controversy this has spawned.

I worked in the private sector for a Fortune 100 corporation in communications and later ran my own consulting business. I left that environment to become a teacher knowing the pay wasn't great and that it had to be about helping kids, not making money. I am not a big fan of organized labor (unions) because I know how greedy, sneaky and underhanded unions can be. However, I grew up in California and remember what it was like to expect the taxpayers to prioritize appropriately. I have been teaching for nearly a decade, and it's the unfortunate truth that, left to its own devices, the public-at-large will not pay teachers a fair wage. The majority of people do not value public education enough to warrant this. This is why we have teachers' unions. Want proof?

I grew up in the aftermath of Proposition 13, and I remember not having basic supplies in my classroom because the public chose lower property taxes over adequate funding for education (and other public services like fire and police protection). I remember my junior high teachers all talking about going out and getting their real estate licenses so they could make ends meet. I remember field trips being phased out. I remember getting to high school to a slew of new and inexperienced teachers who had replaced many who quit or took early retirement rather than accept degrading and demoralizing cuts in pay.

People want excellent teachers for their kids, but you really do get what you pay for. I delayed getting into teaching for ten years because I didn't think it would pay me enough to be able to buy a house or make a reasonable living. I waited until I got married and my husband was established in his career so he could subsidize my desire to teach. I have friends who went to top-notch schools (Stanford in one instance and USC in another) where their parents actually wouldn't give them any financial support during their unpaid student teaching years because the parents felt my friends were wasting their "true" potential on teaching in the public school system.

Isn't this sad? Those parents felt the way they did because there is so little regard and respect for people who really believe in teaching. Why waste a $100,000 education on America's future when you could be networking yourself to death and figuring out new ways to market crushed beetle pigment to candy companies to enhance the color of their new sugar bombs? Now THAT's progress (and profit)!

Pari

[dan76]

their parents actually wouldn't give them any financial support during their unpaid student teaching years because the parents felt my friends were wasting their "true" potential on teaching in the public school system.

Well you have to remember as one poster pointed out that teachers make 100K when you factor in time worked and benefits recieved. Guess thats why the parents didn't want to help them financially when they were going into such a high paying career.

Why did TM70 delete all her posts? Its very hard to follow the argument when you are just seeing one side.

[Robert Giacometti]

I am extremely disappointed in what I've read here.

Yes, I am a teacher, and I agree that FCUSD is a good place to work, and I should also mention that I am new to living in this area.

What disappoints me is the attitude expressed here by community members that teachers shouldn't want any more than what they're offered, and that the District appears to have no interest in the negotiations process. The lack of willingness to engage in reasonable dialogue is unprofessional and effectively diminishes the reputation of the Folsom-Cordova Unified School District because of the controversy this has spawned.

Pari

Pari, I truly haven't seen any shred of evidence by either side to clarify their point.

The District claims if they agree to an additional increase they will have to cut programs in other areas. The teachers claim there is money available to give the raise, but IMHO neither side has proven their point.

I've heard others complain that the District isn't willing to negotiate. Could it be possible that the District has given all they can wihout having to make cuts in other programs? If Indeed this is true...then what in the world are they supposed to negoitiate? Claiming there is additional money available without identifying where the money at, is NOT a very logical arguement to be making and one that I sense probably won't be very well supported in this community. If you can show that there is an increase of funds going into reserves and that the reserves historically are growing, then I would be more supportive of the arguement that the full COLA isn't being passed through to the teachers.

Tessieca, you indicated the District is making cuts, how about giving us specific examples of what programs and how much the budget amounts where last year and how much they will ne next year.

Please understand I'm not taking sides because I don't have the information necesary to make an informed decision. If either side can help me with this info, I would appreciate it.

[cw68]

Why did TM70 delete all her posts? Its very hard to follow the argument when you are just seeing one side.

Some of the responses stay in quotes, so you can try to follow from there. I think TM70 said some things that s/he didn't want record of, didn't think before "speaking" and such. Interesting, definitely.

[aubie84alum]

I had been told about this website by those who live in the Folsom area. I am one of those teachers who can't afford to live in Folsom; in fact, if my father hadn't died, I would not have been able to own a house. My niece is a teacher in another district. We now hold the house in joint tenancy. We took out a 2nd, paid off her college loans, and have this house as our only true investment. Both of us have been married and divorced. I have a son in college. I am the sole supporter of my son and have been since the divorce. There was no child support, ever. I suppose that I could have changed careers, chased money instead of trying to make a difference. It certainly would be more profitable, given my education.

Your time worn sweeping generalizations are tiresome and clichéd. It’s always the same: teachers get all those days off, teachers don’t teach our kids, teachers are just calling it in, and teachers just sit there, blah, blah, blah. Of course we’re not perfect. We run the gamut of abilities, just like every other profession. We’re human; we make mistakes; we have bad days; we didn’t come to this career expecting to get a huge paycheck. However, we didn’t think we’d be incapable of living a comfortable, not luxurious, lifestyle.

I wonder how many times our families got less of our time because we were helping our students…your children, before and after those hours you say we keep. The works still has to be done, usually on weekends or late into the nights.

Check the figures again. This time ask how many new administrative positions were created or changed, how much money the top of the chain is getting, how many pay increases there, and what have they buried in this budget or that. They told us that it’s all in the August board minutes between pages 129 – 139 and to go find it. They DO NOT have to lose ANYTHING by giving us our cost of living adjustment (COLA). We’re not asking for a raise. All we want to do is take care of our families, even if we have to live in Citrus Heights.

I'll raise that $100,000 with a rolled eyes, a smirk and a nose snort! That's what a former Folsom teacher's said that the difference in total benefits since he SWITCHED districts.

Hey, to all of you who are taking the time to research, support and value us. Thanks! It means a lot. In fact, you can make a huge impact on bringing this business to a very swift end. We don't want to have to go impasse. They want us to look bad. Evidently, this is an old technique by the new head guys. We're the ones who are trying to compromise. That's what I've heard anyway. Seek and ye' shall find.

[TM70]

Some of the responses stay in quotes, so you can try to follow from there. I think TM70 said some things that s/he didn't want record of, didn't think before "speaking" and such. Interesting, definitely.

\

You can try...

I apologize to anyone I offended. Sick of being personally attacked. Thank you to those that can see past all of the sniping, mine included. cw68, nothing personal, the teachers at your school are excellent. I'm sure you already know that. I'm sure it would be nice if the district was forthright with all the info, but I'm a little pessimistic. The teachers cards are on the table, read our contract at www.fcea.com or the district budget www.fcusd.org. Make your own decisions...

Thank you for your support!

Lime Green!!!!!

[Dave Burrell]

\

You can try...

I apologize to anyone I offended. Sick of being personally attacked. Thank you to those that can see past all of the sniping, mine included. cw68, nothing personal, the teachers at your school are excellent. I'm sure you already know that. I'm sure it would be nice if the district was forthright with all the info, but I'm a little pessimistic. The teachers cards are on the table, read our contract at www.fcea.com or the district budget www.fcusd.org. Make your own decisions...

Thank you for your support!

Lime Green!!!!!

It's too bad you relented to the negativity and deleted all your posts. It was interesting to read your point of view - unfortunately that is all lost now and future readers will only see the replies from others, which indicates defeat for you at the end of this long and controversial debate.

[tessieca]

Tessieca, you indicated the District is making cuts, how about giving us specific examples of what programs and how much the budget amounts where last year and how much they will ne next year.

No, I said the district does not want to make cuts again after five years of cutting. Giving more than a 5.25% raise would require cuts. I don't want to get caught in a trap where I'm trying to guess which cuts would be good to give a larger increase in pay to teachers, and inevitably to other staff, and so on. I just asked a proponent who suggested cuts in order to give the teachers a fatter paycheck to say where exactly they would cut.

School districts' reserves size is dictated by law. Folsom Cordova's minimum reserve is 3%. If anyone is looking at the reserves as money for salaries, they should understand that would be illegal, and would likely result in a state takeover at some point.

They DO NOT have to lose ANYTHING by giving us our cost of living adjustment (COLA). We’re not asking for a raise. All we want to do is take care of our families, even if we have to live in Citrus Heights.

?? If the union weren't asking for a raise, the matter would be settled.

More than 65% of teachers have already received between 3% and 13% increase. The 5.25% offer would increase every teacher's salary including being placed on top of the already-increased salaries of that 65+%.

It's too bad you can't afford to live in Folsom, Aubie. There was a lot of discussion about making affordable housing available to teachers, firefighters and other public service workers. Unfortunately, Folsom values spun out of control. I couldn't afford my house if I were to want to purchase it now.

[banana]

their parents actually wouldn't give them any financial support during their unpaid student teaching years

What the heck? Why should parents be subsidizing a fully grown adult that can make their own decisions as to what they want to do with their lives?

Heck, my parents wouldn't give me financial support for majoring in art, philosophy, anthropology or any of a dozen majors that don't pay as well as other fields.

If the public school system was open to competition, then we would really see how education is valued in our society.

There are many very highly paid teachers in the private education system, though their employment is at will (no tenure), and private schools compete against one another for that teaching talent.

We run the gamut of abilities, just like every other profession.

And just like every other profession, the worst should be shown the door and the best should be rewarded well. Unfortunately, the current system ensures that those mechanisms don't exist resulting in mediocrity.

Not unlike communism, the old ma bell, or any other monopoly, if you're the only business in town, why bother trying harder?

[SandPebble]

TM70 There were lots of people that understood and believed in your plight. By erasing your previous messages it undermines what you originally said. Even those in favor of the increase in pay to teachers are left wondering why you would delete your opinions, suggestions and information. Why do so much to try to change minds and then disappear? Let us know.

h

[39 degrees]

What the heck? Why should parents be subsidizing a fully grown adult that can make their own decisions as to what they want to do with their lives?

Heck, my parents wouldn't give me financial support for majoring in art, philosophy, anthropology or any of a dozen majors that don't pay as well as other fields.

If the public school system was open to competition, then we would really see how education is valued in our society.

There are many very highly paid teachers in the private education system, though their employment is at will (no tenure), and private schools compete against one another for that teaching talent.
And just like every other profession, the worst should be shown the door and the best should be rewarded well. Unfortunately, the current system ensures that those mechanisms don't exist resulting in mediocrity.

Not unlike communism, the old ma bell, or any other monopoly, if you're the only business in town, why bother trying harder?

New here. I was pointed to this post by another concerned parent. Generally pro-teacher, but I too want some more facts. I am lucky my kids have really good teachers. Want to comment on this post to start. Private schools generally do not pay as well as public and do not require any additional schooling after college. I think they can hire whoever they want. If a teacher is bad, they should go. I wish those other posts were not erased. What's up with the letters and numbers?

Parents don't have to do anything above and beyond for our kids. We do it because we love them. My parents gave me money to go to school. I guess I am just lucky and I will pay for my kids to go to school as well.

[Parizienne]

Well, unfortunately no one is guaranteed to get a well-paying job just because they went to college. Even corporatations expect to recruit educated people, not merely well-trained individuals in a given major area of study. If your parents wouldn't support you majoring in art or philosophy, they were woefully misinformed on what the purpose of education really is. It's not about jobs. It's about the ability to think independently. Employers value people who are decisive on their feet, good interpersonally, well-rounded intellectually, professional, and confident in themselves -- regardless of the field they work in. Studying business or marketing or computer science or engineering (or whatever other pragmatic "career-directed" major you can think of) for four years cannot, by design, accomplish all of that.

Knowing about philosophy and art doesn't pay well for most of us, but it does lend a broader perspective on the world, and that can offer an edge over someone who was merely "trained" for four years in how to balance budgets and market products. People devalue study in the humanities because they think it doesn't serve their interests in the workplace. Actually, it does and it's those people who get ahead and get promoted. Those with narrower views get left in the dust. I have a business degree, but I supplemented it with a heavy emphasis on studying the humanities as well, and I'm glad I did. You may need to think about that, Banana, because in order to be a teacher in your golden years as you've suggested, merely having a Bachelor's Degree isn't enough. You must prove competency in your subject(s) AND have the ability to teach literacy skills at all grade levels. Plus, you need to know something about child development and methodology. There is a misconception that just anyone could do what teachers do. It's surprisingly difficult because you are balancing the intellectual and emotional needs of 30-40 students in each class. If you miss just one student on a given day, they could be hopelessly lost. Addressing the needs of your students will take time and years of practice. They will not just walk in, sit down and hang raptly upon your every word, I assure you. Even with my business degree, I couldn't just walk into a school and teach business classes. I would still have to demonstrate that I can teach reading and writing and manage my classroom and students' needs as well.

Oh.. and I actually interviewed with a charter school when I moved to this area. They paid $20,000 less than what I made in my previous school district. I was very attracted to their program and philosophy, but there was just no way I could work for so little compensation. I worked in a parochial school early in my teaching career. They paid a paltry sum as well, and they did not seem to mind that I was still working on my credential and had no experience. In fact, they took me at my word that I was the daughter-in-law of people who used to be in their congregation. They never checked any references nor did they require me to be fingerprinted or my background to be investigated. You may want to delve a little more into the facts on your belief that private school teachers are paid more and therefore "better" at their jobs. I encourage you also to look into the facts on competition in schools. This has been attempted in some parts of the country with mixed results. Usually, poor students end up being shortchanged which is a violation of federal law. The details are complex, but they're there if you're willing to look at them.

[quote name='banana' date='Feb 11 2007, 06:04 PM' post='145701']


Heck, my parents wouldn't give me financial support for majoring in art, philosophy, anthropology or any of a dozen majors that don't pay as well as other fields.

[aubie84alum]

I just asked a proponent who suggested cuts in order to give the teachers a fatter paycheck to say where exactly they would cut.

If the union weren't asking for a raise, the matter would be settled.

More than 65% of teachers have already received between 3% and 13% increase. The 5.25% offer would increase every teacher's salary including being placed on top of the already-increased salaries of that 65+%.

Again, we're not seeking a raise; in fact, we're NOT seeking 100% of the COLA. We are asking that we be treated fairly. $600 a month for any and all dependents if excessive when you net, on average, about 4k.

The other salary increases are from the current salary scale, I'm guessing. It's on the FCUSD site, if anyone else is interested. Those salary increases are dependent on earn credits beyond an undergraduate degree and time served. School costs money, time is money and the COLA is to off-set inflation.

I have received zero funds to off-set my costs. I supply students with materials. I have spent over $700, easily, this year alone. I also keep food available for those students who don't eat breakfast. Some kids work more that 20 hours at their part-time jobs. They're exhausted when they get to school. They haven't eaten, gotten enough sleep, or gotten prepared for class.

I implore you, all of you parent and others, do NOT rely on the spin from the district office. I think those guys are amused by this game. It's not a game; it's not funny. I find nothing amusing about begging for the bare bones the state sent to us. Godwin said he wanted his people in the top quartile...we're not even close.

I see too that one of those old, red herrings was flopping around on the deck. Yes, we have protections in our unions. However, teachers are let go every day. You just hear about the other stuff. Media and the stories d' jour are much more interesting. In a society that's more interested in Artests(sp?) dog care, Brittany's new beau, Anna Nicole, etc., it's not surprising that some people are swallowing the spin from the political/good old boy machine.

[DrKoz23]

Again, we're not seeking a raise; in fact, we're NOT seeking 100% of the COLA. We are asking that we be treated fairly. $600 a month for any and all dependents if excessive when you net, on average, about 4k.

The other salary increases are from the current salary scale, I'm guessing. It's on the FCUSD site, if anyone else is interested. Those salary increases are dependent on earn credits beyond an undergraduate degree and time served. School costs money, time is money and the COLA is to off-set inflation.

I have received zero funds to off-set my costs. I supply students with materials. I have spent over $700, easily, this year alone. I also keep food available for those students who don't eat breakfast. Some kids work more that 20 hours at their part-time jobs. They're exhausted when they get to school. They haven't eaten, gotten enough sleep, or gotten prepared for class.

I implore you, all of you parent and others, do NOT rely on the spin from the district office. I think those guys are amused by this game. It's not a game; it's not funny. I find nothing amusing about begging for the bare bones the state sent to us. Godwin said he wanted his people in the top quartile...we're not even close.

I see too that one of those old, red herrings was flopping around on the deck. Yes, we have protections in our unions. However, teachers are let go every day. You just hear about the other stuff. Media and the stories d' jour are much more interesting. In a society that's more interested in Artests(sp?) dog care, Brittany's new beau, Anna Nicole, etc., it's not surprising that some people are swallowing the spin from the political/good old boy machine.

You say we shouldn't listen to the spin from the district office... but aren't you biased as well???

[39 degrees]

You say we shouldn't listen to the spin from the district office... but aren't you biased as well???

Everyone has bias and would be foolish to say that they do not. The devil's advocate seems alive and well in this thread. Who should we listen to, the superintendent or the teachers? I'm just trying to see where the teachers are getting fatter. I know my student's teacher doesn't seem to be getting fatter. She drives a ten year old car, has no children and spends anywhere from 9-10 hours a day at school. I'll have to check, but I would not be surprised if she was not working on the weekends as well. I will have to call the district office, but I think they are only supposed to be at school from about 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. or 8 hours, so getting an extra 1-2 hours a day out of my student's teacher seems a good deal to me. She is great with e-mail correspondence and sometimes even answers my concerns on the weekends.

I had no idea they paid so much for medical. $600 after the district helps them out seems a bit much. Is that for single teachers? I don't pay anywhere near that for my family and we have full coverage(Blue Shield) with low co-pays.

What is the top quartile, top 25% of what, teachers? We need some facts on that. This thread is entitled "Lowest Paid in Sacramento." I don't know if that is true, but it sure gets attention. If my circle of friends in any indication we were definitely intrigued by it. I just find it hard to believe that on one hand we respect teachers, but then when they ask for more money, they turn into money grubbers. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Maybe that's my bias.

EDIT:actually, I can't believe I forgot about this, one of the waiters at BJ's is a teacher. Not sure what school. Every time we take the kids there, he is working. I don't know how he does it. That's a lot of time on your feet. Next time we go I'm going to ask him.