219 replies to this topic

[Carl G]

How about knifes? Clubs/bats? Hammers? Shovels? Nail guns? Axes? Picks? Chains?

How about cars? Cleaning fluids? Rope? Wire? Gasoline/Propane tanks? Matches?

What if the parents are well regarded, responsible members of society -- bankers, lawyers, shop owners, whatever -- but are attractive targets for criminals (home invasion)?

My duty as a parent is to protect my child. If I believed those items posed a risk to my child then I wouldn't have them in my house. I do keep them in a safe place so my children cannot access them. I expect gun owners with disturbed children to do the same.

[knittychick]

Many of the comments have nothing to do with the tragedy at Sandy Hook. Would one of the mods please separate this topic into two threads one for Sandy Hook and the other for gun control?

[MikeinFolsom]

The unfortunate part of the whole ordeal is the kid took a weapon that is capable of inflicting large amounts of hurt in a short period of time, and did just that. He had 30 round magazines. Most of the kids, per the ME, were shot at least 3 times, and I think he mentioned someone else getting hit 11 times. If we look at the numbers of a minimum of 3 shots each and 26 people, we're talking over 75 rounds right there. But he shot some of them more than 3 times. I haven't hear an exact number yet.

The hard part for me, and again, I'm fully supportive and appreciative of the 2nd amendment, but if it hadn't been that 'easy' for him to put so many rounds down range, the toll could have been minimalized. Maybe. Could you imagine if he had a belt fed M249? Why didn't he have one of those? Because they're not allowed. The average schmoe can't get his hands on one of those. Neither can most criminals. So, on the chance if 30rd magazines were as scarce, or ALL rifles came as fixed capacity top loading type shooters, could this have been avoided?

I toyed around with purchasing a .50 rifle when they first came on the market. Besides only being able to really shoot them in the desert to test my capabilites on figuring a dope anymore, I had a hard time justifying the purchase. Is there any real need for a common citizen to possess one of those bad boys? Not unless you want to shoot milk cartons at 1600yds. Can't really hunt with them, they'll destroy what you're shooting.

It wasn't the rifle that killed those kids. It was the rifle and its capabilities that made it such an easy task for him though. Folks, there's a reason why school shootings aren't involving 12ga side-by-sides. There's a reason why the shooter was able to take out 14 kids and the teacher as they all huddled together in the classroom. Ease. One magazine. Sad.

[Logan]

Yes. I guess you've been practicing to use your weapon(s) but you've never had to actually use it for what it was designed to do. With the exception of guns designed strictly for target shooting (for sport), real guns (i.e., guns that shoot real bullets) are designed to kill or injure.

I think it's bizarre that people think that this is a bizarre idea.

I'm sorry, guns designed strictly for target shooting, are just as deadly. They just happened to be made with greater precision so as to improve the accuracy and consitency with which they shoot. Which actually makes them a better weapon.

[The Average Joe]

Funny thing. The existing laws did not prevent the shooter from breaking those laws (magazine size, ownership, etc.). The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of letters of recommendation being required. A mentally disturbed person (diagnosed or not) would have a much harder time getting three people to vouch for him. It would not prevent ALL incidents, but it would certainly cut down on the number.
Something else about laws, they only work if you respect the authority making them. The idiot magazine disconnect and loaded indicator required by CA law inspire bad gun use habits, and do nothing to promote safety. They are a fallible crutch for diligence. The most important safety device is the one between your ears. All mechanical devices have a chance to fail. All guns should be assumed to be loaded and handled as such until proven otherwise.
While I agree with the need for safe storage, I remember as a kid, my dad had both pistols and rifles. We were taught how to use them at an appropriate age, and we NEVER would have even thought about "playing" with them even though we could have accessed them. It was out of respect for my what they were capable of AND my dad. It was a different time I suppose, but I have to wonder if the insane decline of fathers in the households has contributed to the general lack of discipline and self control.
I also find it interesting that although rural populations have more guns per capita, their murder rate is lower than urban. Something to ponder. Are the numbers being skewed by gangs fighting each other, or is there just an inherent difference in attitudes?
My brain is too tired... but I'm glad to see reasonable conversation about a complex issue.
We've pretty much talked out the gun issue, let's have some ideas on mental health care.

[cw68]

I have to wonder if the insane decline of fathers in the households has contributed to the general lack of discipline and self control.

I think it's less the decline of fathers in the household as the lack of authority of parents in the household. Entertain our kids! Make our kids happy! Don't let our kids feel disappointment! Don't let our kids feel any negative emotions! Households are less the domain of the parents (or parent) and more about appeasing the children. Children, generally, emotionally only understand the short-term while parents, more emotionally mature, understand the long-term. When parents lose the upper hand the emotional maturing guiding actions is also lost.

[MSgt]

Many of the comments have nothing to do with the tragedy at Sandy Hook. Would one of the mods please separate this topic into two threads one for Sandy Hook and the other for gun control?

They have become one topic in todays political scene. You won't be able to keep them separate here either.

[MikeinFolsom]

Opening the topic on mental health, that's a biggie. Now we would be getting into 1st Amendment rights. If a guy wants to stand on the street corner and proclaim that space aliens are running the country (how far off is he?) does that make him crazy? If I want to wrap my house in aluminum foil because I don't want the RNC listening in when I scheme the next elections, am I a card short of a whole deck?

There has actually been a back-lash on obtaining 5150 holds on some patients that you might think fit the criteria because of recent case law. There are many ramifications from even being placed on one just for an 'assessment'. Lethal weapons are removed from your house and held until due cause can be established that you are stable enough to reclaim them. Life insurance qualifications take a hit. There are many more, I'm just not an attorney that can whip them out on a moments notice.

Because of these liabilities, more and more agencies are refusing to place people on a 5150 and instead they just dump them off in a local ER and hope something can be dont to 'fix' the person. More often than not, they get pushed right back out on the road.

The funding for such an endeavour will be large but if we can raise the sales tax 1% to ensure flipper doesn't get caught in a six pack plastic thingy (sarcasm) maybe now is the time to secure a funding source to enact a mainstream mental health program?

[folsom500]

I am done reading this topic. IMO, Supermom, The Dude, The Professor, your petty fighting on this thread is sad.

Ok - Lets keep this topic civil so it can stay in the open topic and also not be closed. I have done a bit of clean up so lets move on as much of this is very thoughtful and sound information....


.. again - keep it ON topic and without the personal attacks...

[supermom]

Opening the topic on mental health, that's a biggie. Now we would be getting into 1st Amendment rights. If a guy wants to stand on the street corner and proclaim that space aliens are running the country (how far off is he?) does that make him crazy? If I want to wrap my house in aluminum foil because I don't want the RNC listening in when I scheme the next elections, am I a card short of a whole deck?

There has actually been a back-lash on obtaining 5150 holds on some patients that you might think fit the criteria because of recent case law. There are many ramifications from even being placed on one just for an 'assessment'. Lethal weapons are removed from your house and held until due cause can be established that you are stable enough to reclaim them. Life insurance qualifications take a hit. There are many more, I'm just not an attorney that can whip them out on a moments notice.

Because of these liabilities, more and more agencies are refusing to place people on a 5150 and instead they just dump them off in a local ER and hope something can be dont to 'fix' the person. More often than not, they get pushed right back out on the road.

The funding for such an endeavour will be large but if we can raise the sales tax 1% to ensure flipper doesn't get caught in a six pack plastic thingy (sarcasm) maybe now is the time to secure a funding source to enact a mainstream mental health program?

I used to work in an emergency room, where I specifically handled 5150 patients. That title never leaves your social security #. So if a cop uses your social and looks for you in registration in hospital records; that lovely handle pops up. If one hospital requests records on you from another hospital system, that handle pops up.

If you request state funded aid, that handle pops up.

Now, if you go to certain hospitals and receive care there, they will not allow you to have basic freedom of movement rights while in their hospital if you have ever been labeled as a 5150. Who pays for that constant babysitter? Your insurance. How does your insurance get notified of that billing? As a security for 5150 precautions.

Did you know that the most work place violence that happens to employees is in the nursing industry? What happens when a person is labeled a 5150 at a hospital?

They go through a triage system. The triage system separates out basic facts.
1. insured or uninsured
2. family they can be released to
3. was a crime committed that brought them there (many cops wont press charges, they just use their power of discretion to drop them off at a hospital, instead)
4. the severity of the threat that brought them there ( are they a threat to themselves or others -- can they not care for themselves- are they under the influence of drugs and alcohol, are they cognizant of their predicament, are they under the care of a physician who is caring medically caring for their psychiatric needs, do they have a history of 5150 problems, are they under the care of a shrink, Can they safely be released into the care of an adult family member.
5. Are there any beds available

[folsom500]

On thing that I have read recently said that Conneticut has an Assualt Rifle Ban and also has provisions for mental health checks on gun applicants. Obviously the latter does not take into consideration of family members. How would one deal with this type of situation outside of the direct family doing what it should in keeping the firearms secured ?
I also wonder how the mother was able to get the rifle based on the states ban on them. Is it that easy to get ?

The mental health element is certainly something that should be looked at a state and federal level.

But stopping this kind of mass murder will be most difficult as the shooter in recent years has stolen the firearms used to create the mayhem-- whether from the parents or from someone else.

[camay2327]

I was out and about in my truck this morning and was listening to Dennis Miller.

They were talking about the killings at Sandy Hook Elementary School and the
person he was talking to said, what if the school had had a silent intrusion alarm
like the banks have?

Would that have helped get the police there faster? Would it have saved a
few more lives. We will never know, but...

It might be something for the schools to look in to.

[folsom500]

I was out and about in my truck this morning and was listening to Dennis Miller.

They were talking about the killings at Sandy Hook Elementary School and the
person he was talking to said, what if the school had had a silent intrusion alarm
like the banks have?

Would that have helped get the police there faster? Would it have saved a
few more lives. We will never know, but...

It might be something for the schools to look in to.

I think that is a good idea- I was thinking a few days ago about the LIFE ALERT that is often advertised ( I have fallen and cant get up) in the same vain...

[tsukiji]

I guess anything may help. But I'd consider:
1) this is still reactive, not preventative
2) any safety interlock can be defeated; a person planning something could include plans to work around these kinds of things
3) it's still relatively passive -- perhaps a more active solution is more ideal.