749 replies to this topic

[dave]

Ok, Bish got there first.

[dave]

Dave,

Let me change your topic from rape to a legal, yet widely abhored, subject: bomb making. Why haven't we seen any wealthy, foolish millionaires open bomb making book stores? The answer is of course, because there aren't any foolish, wealthy millionaires who wish to open bomb making book stores. And if they don't exist, should we bother making laws to prohibit them?

I'm not talking about making laws. It's just a hypothetical. What would you do? What could be done? Let's just assume a rich guy is doing it.

[dave]

Most Libertarians would draw the line at the initiation of force. A book on rape, as abhorant as all of us find that to be, doesn't initiate force. Rape is force, and therefore is wrong. A book is an inanimate object, not capable of hurting anyone.

Does that mean you would think a law against that is ok? What form? And to be specific, let's assume this is happpening on Sutter Street.

[Adamal]

Does that mean you would think a law against that is ok?  What form?  And to be specific, let's assume this is happpening on Sutter Street.

Why do we need a law. The public outcry would be sufficient.

[bordercolliefan]

Someone asked above if we really believe that the proposed lingerie shop will depress property values.

At this point, we don't know for sure where this store will fall on the scale of tawdriness: we have had conflicting information that, on the one hand, it is a "high end lingerie shop" with "handmade lingerie" but, on the other hand, it will stock sex toys and porn and have an 18-and-over room.

Let's assume it is more on the tawdry end of the scale -- a sex-oriented shop, rather than simply a place to obtain nice undies. (The name, "Ms. Teaz, is certainly suggestive).

Here's what might happen over a few years. Say the next business that wants to come to Sutter St. is a massage parlor (and I don't mean a nice day spa) or tatoo parlor. The City says, "No, we don't want that kind of business here!" The prospective business is sure to argue, "Look, you've already got a store selling sex toys and porn! You can hardly argue that we're more tacky than that!" And they'd probably prevail.

So no, one business probably won't affect our property values. But it potentially opens the door to a whole slew of seedy businesses and yes, that will affect our property values.

[dave]

Adamal: Sufficient to do what? Remember, he is insulated to business concerns such as profit.

[bordercolliefan]

I notice Ms.Teaz has joined myfolsom as a lurker! Perhaps we will get some information directly from the horse's mouth as to exactly what the nature of this store will be and what types of items it will carry.

What do you say, Ms.Teaz?

[Cloud9]

So a tattoo shop is also a big deal now? I have 2 tattoos... never thought of tattoos as being a big deal either. How do you know there isn't a 'massage parlor' already operating in Folsom?

You really don't know what's going on behind closed doors. I've heard Folsom has a decent sized swingers community.

Don't think any of these things will have much impact on Folsom's property values.

A sudden increase in interest rates is another matter.... that would surely have an impact.

[Adamal]

Adamal:  Sufficient to do what?  Remember, he is insulated to business concerns such as profit.

Of course it is sufficient. The current Laws are already good enough to get rid of the shop if there is enough public outcry. We don't need new laws.

[MsTeaz]

We're your average run of the mill happy family (up until recently). We've yet to be given a fair shake by the community, and we're quickly growing very tired of trying to pursue our dream of setting up a store with "upscale lingerie, corsetry, evening gowns, separates, dresses, nightwear, classy shoes, body jewelry, glitter makeup, books (not any different from what is found in Boarders), aroma therapy candles, hosiery, boas, wigs, gift wrapping, stickers, and antique displays". In the back behind a clearly marked "Over 18 only" latching door with a curtain just beyond the door - VERY soft novelties (such as those often seen on Sutter Street in the possession of wayward going bachelorets sharing a fun-filled evening in historic Folsom), massage oils, stickers, many fun chocolate games and body paints, gag-gifts. We too have a very happy and well developed daughter ourselves, and we do (and have intended from the on-start of our dream) respect the upbringing of others.

We took the time to open and share our business plan (of which was the first my husband ever created) with all merchants, city officials, and many others long before we decided to move forward and apply our lifelong saving into this business. We are by no means "rich" or "millionaires". We both have worked long and hard for a very reputable corp in Folsom most of our lives, and we saw an opportunity to bring something fun that we too could be proud of to Folsom - having often visited Folsom and the lake since our childhoods; moreover, I was a resident of Folsom myself for a considerable time prior to moving to Fair Oaks (VERY Nice Place to Live by the way). We both are natives of the Sacto area - attending Pope Avenue & Star King Elementary, Mira Loma, AR, and Sac State). We had no idea of what laid in store for us with the opening of our store. Not sure if many have made the connection yet (Ms Teaz => Misty => Me and my silhouette).

We both, in all honesty (and we would be glad to look each and every one of you in the eye while saying this) - we have NEVER had any intention to place the sorts of dirty/thilthy things we've been accused of in our windows, in our store, or even in our "FUN" back room. But it was good to know that the city's intent with the ordinance was to rely upon our morals and ethics to guide the selection of our inventory for the business - thank God for being an American! On the down side, there have been moments and long nights this past week, however, when we both have laid awake at night fearing that the anger brought on by a few individuals saying such non-factual things and getting away with it due to there money and political power could end up in a rock being thrown through our window or in the bed of our daughter. Please look within yourselves and ask yourselves tonight while your family is asleep if you would be happy living in our community if you were us. Moreover, the city council is now meeting to try to dictate how we are to run our business (or not). This is our life we have worked long and hard for and the chance to share in "the dream" that is being decided by a few individuals who have been swayed by money, politics, and the media (looking for the best story whether it be the truth or not).

[Steve Heard]

Funny, scary, and sad.

Those are the adjectives I'd use to describe most of the posts I've seen on this topic.

Funny, because so many are making judgements based SOLELY on rumors.

Scary, because of what it is doing to law abiding citizens in this town, and because now I know it could happen to any one of us.

Sad because so many are attacking these people and trying to manipulate the system to see that they get run out of town.

I can't reply to every point in every post, but let me say this:

These people are not selling pornography. They are selling adult items to adults.
As I said before, I went there to see the place with my own eyes, and found them to be forthright, upstanding people, with a plan for a good business.

The things they sell are legal and normal.

Comparing them to strip clubs, peep shows, head shops, child pornographers and the like is disgusting and just flat out wrong.

Sutter Street has been dying for years, and now we have someone willing to invest their hard earned money in an attempt to bring at least part of it back to life, and what are we doing do them?

All who have condemned them should be ashamed.

I now understand how lynchmobs got started.

[Steve Heard]

""Quite honestly, I'm not sure how one draws the line between the types of examples I suggested and our present dilemma -- i.e., the opening of the "sex shop" (assuming that is what it will be). However, I do feel there are certain types of businesses that are widely regarded as tawdry, that serve no compelling interest (i.e., people do have a constitutional right to practice their religion, but not to use sex toys), and that can tend to depress property values. Surely, a community has the right to prevent itself from being invaded by these undesirable businesses. At the very least, the town can regulate such businesses to the degree that the climate is very unfavorable for them"

Border, I had to reply to that one.

Of course a community has a right to prevent itself from being invaded by undesirable businesses. Since when did a lingerie shop become undesirable?
It is not a sex shop. It is not a porn shop. It is a lingerie shop.

We do have regulations regarding adult bookstores and strip joints. This place is nothing of the kind.

[MsTeaz]

We are now faced with spending additional money on legal fees or to loose much on the account of the city. Many told us just to hold in there and stick to our dream - "it will fall into place if you two have nothing to hide" we have been told by the street. Why are so many so determined to push their interests/beliefs upon others to the extent of destroying the lives of those impose judgment without first consulting the people they are persecuting? This has definitely forced us to see through another set of eyes and learn a life lesson. Had we been looking for the dollar rather then the experience and fun of a shop with happy people, we would never had left our well established corporate positions.

There is still a question of whether or not we will be selling any porn videos or magazines of any sort. We had intended to have "How-to/educational media" in our initial business plan = flirting (which we have in both book and video options), ideas for fun in relationships (we have in books), etc... We will NOT, and we NEVER EVER stated this anywhere at any time.

Should anyone not believe this to be true, I employ you to come to our shop... Look either of us in the eye... and receive the honest answer - "NO Porn! - Ever!

We are VERY VERY tired and tomorrow is yet another long day ahead. Good night one and all.....

[bishmasterb]

I'm not talking about making laws.  It's just a hypothetical.  What would you do?  What could be done?  Let's just assume a rich guy is doing it.

Dave,

If any store was selling material that I found to be of a severely offensive nature (rape, bomb making, etc.), the first thing I would do would be to stop giving them my money.

Secondly, if they were doing so blatantly, in such a way that I felt my family could should not be confronted with it, I would let the nearby businesses know that I wouldn't be able to visit them as well.

All of this is hypothetical, we won't see any stores along these lines for the reasons I've previously pointed out, but nonethless that's what I'd do if such a store theoretically existed.

[bishmasterb]

Does that mean you would think a law against that is ok?  What form?  And to be specific, let's assume this is happpening on Sutter Street.

Well, a law against rape is fine, their is a victim and the victim should be compensated. A law against a book is not okay, there is no victim.