26 replies to this topic

[mylo]

Well, there are over 1000 districts in CA, and nearly 7 million students. FCUSD has about 19000 of them.

Cool, so 0.27% of students and 0.9% of national board certified teachers. Sounds pretty good to me! Except one of them is now a principal, not a teacher

I think Carl Sundahl is where my little guy will go, eventually.

[supermom]

Well, there are over 1000 districts in CA, and nearly 7 million students. FCUSD has about 19000 of them.

HMM... I never passed math without seriously struggling but wouldn't 1% of 3660 credentialed teachers be 3.6? So if there are 3 credentialed teachers in the district how does that compare overall to the comparative competitiveness of teachers in CA?
How many teachers work in CA? Does that include only k-12 or do all of these numbers encompass k-UC? I think I see where you are going with this Tessieca. I am impressed.

[mylo]

HMM... I never passed math without seriously struggling but wouldn't 1% of 3660 credentialed teachers be 3.6? So if there are 3 credentialed teachers in the district how does that compare overall to the comparative competitiveness of teachers in CA?
How many teachers work in CA? Does that include only k-12 or do all of these numbers encompass k-UC? I think I see where you are going with this Tessieca. I am impressed.

From: http://www.ed-data.k.....in California

California had nearly 308,000 teachers (300,200 full-time equivalents) in its schools in 2005-06 and a need for about 21,000 more in 2006-07. The vast majority of teachers, 94.2%, had the appropriate credentials (compared to 93% the year before). About 3.6% were on emergency permits or waivers, and another 3.4% were interns working toward their teaching credential.

[tessieca]

Cool, so 0.27% of students and 0.9% of national board certified teachers. Sounds pretty good to me! Except one of them is now a principal, not a teacher

I think Carl Sundahl is where my little guy will go, eventually.

Yes, but the principals can use their skills and knowledge to help ALL of the teachers at the school! The benefits of the NB certification have been shown to benefit others who practice with the certified professional.

HMM... I never passed math without seriously struggling but wouldn't 1% of 3660 credentialed teachers be 3.6? So if there are 3 credentialed teachers in the district how does that compare overall to the comparative competitiveness of teachers in CA?
How many teachers work in CA? Does that include only k-12 or do all of these numbers encompass k-UC? I think I see where you are going with this Tessieca. I am impressed.

3660 x .01 (1%) = 36.6. Per cent = per hundred. The only math lesson I'm giving today.

Mylo pulled the number of CA teachers off of Eddata. FCUSD has about 950, so we have .27% or .0027 of the students in our district and about .3% of the teachers. So, 3x the number of NB certified teachers than our district size would suggest we should.

Please don't confuse "credentialed" with "NB certified." We are very close to having 100% of our teachers credentialed in the subject in which they are teaching 100% of the time. The National Board certification goes above and beyond the required state credentialing, as Pari described above. It is a specialized certification that is only done voluntarily, and not everyone who tries it is able to obtain the certification. It is a difficult process.

[supermom]

Yes, but the principals can use their skills and knowledge to help ALL of the teachers at the school! The benefits of the NB certification have been shown to benefit others who practice with the certified professional.
3660 x .01 (1%) = 36.6. Per cent = per hundred. The only math lesson I'm giving today.

Mylo pulled the number of CA teachers off of Eddata. FCUSD has about 950, so we have .27% or .0027 of the students in our district and about .3% of the teachers. So, 3x the number of NB certified teachers than our district size would suggest we should.

Please don't confuse "credentialed" with "NB certified." We are very close to having 100% of our teachers credentialed in the subject in which they are teaching 100% of the time. The National Board certification goes above and beyond the required state credentialing, as Pari described above. It is a specialized certification that is only done voluntarily, and not everyone who tries it is able to obtain the certification. It is a difficult process.

uh right forgot a decimal! Always did do that. So there are 36.6 -(37) is cleaner-Teachers who are NB certified. They are not paid at a higher rate than teachers who are just credentialed. The only apparent boost is a feather in their cap and the ability to move from state to state as a teacher and basically compete for a job at another school-however they won't be paid higher at a new school just because they have gone through the extensive steps? Even worse, they may lose their tenureship when they move so they will earn less money? So really this is just a way to step out of a teacher position and into an administrative position? From a practical point of view I can see that this program is useful because Teachers learn through the process how they were able to better themselves in order to more broadly teach a certain subject and successfully reach all or most of their students. (Is this right?) So in fact these teachers are then able to possibly mentor new teachers or aides. They are not paid for this? No wonder many teachers feel un-appreciated.

[mylo]

They are not paid for this? No wonder many teachers feel un-appreciated.

Any union reps want to chime in on tessieca's statement that you don't want NB certified teachers to get paid more:

"I agree that they should be; however, teachers' unions get prickly about paying some teachers more than others. They would get column increases for gaining more education/units."

[DavidH]

Yes, but the principals can use their skills and knowledge to help ALL of the teachers at the school! The benefits of the NB certification have been shown to benefit others who practice with the certified professional.

That's assuming that they actually get to spend time with the classroom teachers and not in jack-*^& meetings, many of which are held off campus. How many teachers get to "practice with the certified professional?" My guess is not many and certainly not for any meaningful time.

[Revolutionist]

Any union reps want to chime in on tessieca's statement that you don't want NB certified teachers to get paid more:

"I agree that they should be; however, teachers' unions get prickly about paying some teachers more than others. They would get column increases for gaining more education/units."

[Disclaimer: Incoming satire]

Let me take a crack at that Mylo....

It is our belief that everyone should "feel good about her/himself" and we strive to provide an environment of good feelings to each and every student in our care. We go to excruciating lengths to ensure the desired outcome, such as removing any game or style of play that encourages competition or could result in a team or an individual "winning" or "losing". We find that those who strive for excellence can potentially cause our non-achieving population to feel inadequate or experience feelings of "less than goodness". As this is a crime against humanity as defined by The Hague and the UN subcommittee on children's psychological health, it must be avoided at all cost.

In accordance with this policy, we must insist on a pay structure for our instructors that exemplifies this ideal. After all, how can we enforce mediocrity (we prefer the term "conformity") in our students if we don't model it for them as instructors? Rewarding those motivated and gifted individuals who put in the time and effort to earn advanced credentials such as Board Certification could induce feelings of inferiority or less-goodness in those teachers who fall within or below the "bell curve". In addition, the risk of producing free-thinkers poses a direct threat to the very stability of the union, and may result in a revolution overthrowing our entrenched education establishment.

While we certainly encourage all of our teachers to take additional units in such courses as "how to make 20 minutes seem like 2 hours" and reward them accordingly with column increases, individual achievement and recognition for substantial growth must be extinguished. For the good of all.

... how was that?

[supermom]

That's assuming that they actually get to spend time with the classroom teachers and not in jack-*^& meetings, many of which are held off campus. How many teachers get to "practice with the certified professional?" My guess is not many and certainly not for any meaningful time.

MMM.....well, I'm a mom not a teacher or administrator but maybe I can field this. At this time my son has had 3 teachers this year. Due to two family traumas his class teacher has continuously been outside the class. The two subs this year have been very knowledgable and creative; though there were definitely shortfalls. The point I'm am making is that the teacher was able to guide both the subs even though she was outside of the class for quite some time. Further, due to a student with special needs there was an aide in class all year who was also able to help other students. This aide is someone I was shocked (I always assumed teacher aides were either volunteers or interns) to learn that had in impressive educational background.

I have also met some pretty incredible teachers at this school. It would not be fair to name some as I am sure I would inadvertantly leave some out-but now that I understand the difference of credentialed vs. NB certified I do wonder if my children have had any of these teachers.

Carl Sundahl has a unique (I think) take on science and history. All the kids in this one grade go round robin. I like this because it gets the kids motivated to work for another teacher-and it also allows the teachers to interact with each other when preparing lesson plans. That means the teachers are mentoring each other. I'm not certain how much of this program was due to overly large class sizes or due to the fact that this grade seems to be overstocked on a ratio of boys to girls or maybe the teachers have found this round robin approach to be more beneficial to the students- but I think it has been managed well.

Further, I must say that when I was a kid-I remember going to a school where there were 3 5th grade classes and they were interconnected. The entire class would get up and revolve into the another teachers class. The entire school building was built like a wheel with the library in the center. The down side is that language arts was not a strong point at the school. The up side is that we had a very progressive school with life sciences. I enjoyed moving around as a 5th grader with the whole class. So I guess what I'm saying is that I wonder if this school too had been reaching out to students by using several teachers for each student. I wonder how much teacher interaction and mentoring was taking place there? I like the idea that teachers are bettering themselves rather than going stagnant with a bunch of kids year after year. I don't "get" the unions reps fickle position of paying credentialed teachers less than NB certified teachers. It is my understanding that uncredentialed teachers are paid less than credentialed teachers, right? I think that if the NB certified process were to be evaluated by the school (board?) and broken down into steps they could be paid by what step they have accomplished. Give them a max. amount of time to fully complete the steps. By all means I think that the competitive and self furthering endeavors of teachers should be rewarded. Well, I'm ranting now.

[tessieca]

So really this is just a way to step out of a teacher position and into an administrative position?

Actually, most have not stepped up to admin from teaching positions after getting this credential. You'd have to ask them what their goals are in obtaining the certification, but I think it has to do with personal growth and professional development -- many of us want to continue to learn and grow within our professions instead of stagnating. Research shows that teachers get the most satisfaction out of collegiality, professionalism, and being able to make a difference in kids' lives. All of those are promoted when they obtain this advanced certification.

[supermom]

Actually, most have not stepped up to admin from teaching positions after getting this credential. You'd have to ask them what their goals are in obtaining the certification, but I think it has to do with personal growth and professional development -- many of us want to continue to learn and grow within our professions instead of stagnating. Research shows that teachers get the most satisfaction out of collegiality, professionalism, and being able to make a difference in kids' lives. All of those are promoted when they obtain this advanced certification.

Sorry I didn't mean to sound flippant or condescending. I suppose at times I just wonder why teachers are not more universally accepted as a competitive career when so many teachers do "go the distance" and seem truly motivated in their goals.

[Parizienne]

In actual fact, there used to be a $10,000 stipend for teachers who completed the National Board Certification process successfully, That award didn't stay around for long. Once the budget needed attention, that funding was among the first things to be cut, I believe. I think that was also the year they eliminated bonuses for teachers whose students scored above a certain margin on the state tests. So much for merit, yes? As is the case with so many things education-related, the funding for this stipend went bye-bye. I wouldn't know for absolutely certain, though, because I was a lowly intern that year and completely clueless about those issues at that time.

NB Certification isn't a union or a district-oriented compensation matter. It was federal and state-oriented compensation, and I think it should be because we are talking about national certification and excellence based upon national benchmarks and standards. The unions had no problem with that sort of compensatin as far as I am aware. I am sure the districts would appreciate not having to bear the financial burden of compensating a teacher for certification that goes far beyond their sphere of influence at the local level.

However, I would also argue that if a school board decided to offer special compensation for teachers who completed the certification successfully, they could certainly design their own compensation award in light of the lack of federal and state compensation. I doubt a union would turn that down. Then again, I tend to be rather naive (some say refreshingly so as my attitude is indeed more optimistic than most) when it comes to political intrigue, so I could be wrong about that.


Pari

Sorry I didn't mean to sound flippant or condescending. I suppose at times I just wonder why teachers are not more universally accepted as a competitive career when so many teachers do "go the distance" and seem truly motivated in their goals.