38 replies to this topic

[Deb aka Resume Lady]

CW -- I'm thrilled to have parents in our community who give of themselves for great programs. The bike to school program has been very well received and you've done an awesome job getting it of the ground and expanding on a great idea.

[Robert Giacometti]

Robert, what do you mean we can no longer afford to do things because they make us feel good? I guarantee this day in the end nets more benefits than positives and not because there isn't any "work" (loosely defined for this purpose) involved. This doesn't affect any deficits because how I do this day doesn't cost diddly. A few companies give us stickers and coffee and get free advertising in return. A few parents (a whopping 13 for NSE) give their time. I think I bought a roll of raffle tickets and some envelopes. The PTA paid for a pizza party. Sound the alarms.

Instead of focusing on the work involved, focus on the benefits. Better behaved kids at schools, stronger communities, safer school campuses. Maybe even healthier Americans, which we so need because our collective large size is going to be (and is already) a huge drag on our society and economy.

We can't focus on one aspect we truly need to take an objective evaluation of the entire project and weigh the benefits compared to the costs.

There are Fire & Police involved so there are costs involved with the program. They really aren't sittting around all day waiting for the phone to ring, so when they are participating in these programs it is taking them away from other things. There is a cost of the time Administration is involved in the planning and coordination of the program, against their other responsibilities

If the goal is to reduce the number of miles cars are being driven, then we need to accuartely calculate ALL the miles driven to plan and put on this program, and weigh that against how many miles we normally drive. If we really are driving more miles to put on this program then is it truly worth it? This is a fair and legitimate question to ask.

There are other factosr to consider also as you pointed out , so collectively they all need to be evaluated and then weighed against the costs.

If indeed the program provides more benefits thant it costs then we should continue with it.
There is absolutely nothing negative about taking an objective evaluation of EVERY program we put on!

We can no longer afford to put on programs that make us feel good without some sort of tangible benefit to society. We truly have to make changes!

[cw68]

We can't focus on one aspect we truly need to take an objective evaluation of the entire project and weigh the benefits compared to the costs.

There are Fire & Police involved so there are costs involved with the program. They really aren't sittting around all day waiting for the phone to ring, so when they are participating in these programs it is taking them away from other things. There is a cost of the time Administration is involved in the planning and coordination of the program, against their other responsibilities

If the goal is to reduce the number of miles cars are being driven, then we need to accuartely calculate ALL the miles driven to plan and put on this program, and weigh that against how many miles we normally drive. If we really are driving more miles to put on this program then is it truly worth it? This is a fair and legitimate question to ask.

There are other factosr to consider also as you pointed out , so collectively they all need to be evaluated and then weighed against the costs.

If indeed the program provides more benefits thant it costs then we should continue with it.
There is absolutely nothing negative about taking an objective evaluation of EVERY program we put on!

We can no longer afford to put on programs that make us feel good without some sort of tangible benefit to society. We truly have to make changes!

The police and fire came over, yes. But we weren't the priority and nobody spent any extra hours at the school. I was assured over and over that the department likes to do this to create a stronger community. All they did was hang out at the school for about one hour instead of the fire house. One vehicle one year, two another.

I guarantee the miles I spent driving to starbucks (four blocks) to pick up the coffee, the pizza party (1/2 mile) and getting the raffle tickets (next door to where I purchased cat food during the same visit) doesn't offset the miles NOT driven by the parents of the 400 or so kids who walk to school that day. Most other giveaways were given to me in the course of normal driving. (ie, I'd see my friend and they'd hand me the 500 highlighters when we were together)

This isn't some big huge gov't program, it's a volunteer day by parents. This day at NSE it's not "run" by anyone but me. It's not a PTA thing, it doesn't cost hardly a thing but time by volunteers, and not much at that. The school administration isn't involved. Trust me when I say the benefits outweigh any possible cons. But if you want to evaluate a volunteer program that supports our schools, our students and our community to see if it valuable enough for you, go ahead. I think it would take a lot less time, energy and money to simply say, "Hm, walk to school today. It's a good thing."

[tony]

Robert: I think CW's responses covered what needed to be said, but I, too, found your initial and follow-up responses to be much more cynical than "questioning". Really, to suggest that a day promoting kids walking and biking to school would result in more driving is purely cynical. And even if it did on that one day, the point of the day is to get families to try something different, to start to change habits. The payoff is not a one-day thing. Yep, there may be a few parents who will drive their kid's backpack to school, and some of those who will be planning and volunteering may have a couple of extra trips. But keep in mind that the organizers of these events are people who believe in the benefits of their kids walking and biking to school, not just one day a year, but all year. So, in addition to being conscious of minimizing trips associated with planning and organizing the events, we are likely to bike to the meetings anyway. For example, the planning meetings for our event are at a soccer practice that most of the parents are already attending, and several show up by bike.

Your comment on breaking up carpools for the day is a valid concern and of personal interest since most days my children get to and from school by carpool. On OCt. 7th, all 4 kids in the carpool will go to and from school by bike. Actually, i look at the the opposite way: our carpool keeps my kids from biking more often, because we have to pick up the other half of the carpool, and the youngest one is hesitant to ride. But, say only one family breaks from the carpool for the day to walk or bike, that doesn't lead to any more trips, but merely the same number of trips with less occupants of the car. Even if all parents decided to pick up their kids and bikes by car separately for the ride home, it still would not result in more trips, but the kids would still have received the benefit of the experience and the exercise.

Robert, clearly you have not attended one of these events. Please feel free to walk or bike to one of the schools on October 7th to see for yourself.

[supermom]

Plus, as the kids get older, the parents suddenly realize that this is a good day to see if the kid can handle the walk/ride all the way.

If they can-it becomes a permanent routine.

[Robert Giacometti]

Tony & CW, No where did I ever say I was opposed to this event, I'm just simply asking is the benefit we as a community receive greater than the cost to put it on?

CW made the comment about having 1200 school children eschewing riding in a car. All I was attempting to do was to enlighten people into realizing there are hidden costs/effects with programs that we sometimes don't factor in when evaluating programs, by asking questions about additional car trips.

If we are ever going to solve our huge issues facing this country we all are going to have to start looking at cost/benefit effects of programs and that includes hidden costs as well.

Its good that we have concerned citizens willing to invest time to bring indeas/programs that can improve our quality of life. At the same time we can't allow ourselves to become so personally involved in these program that one can't be open to the possibility of an objective evaluation to verify wether or not ANY program's benefit outweighs the cost.

I truly wish the program all the best, hope it is successful and everyone learns from this.

[bordercolliefan]

I like to walk because it gives the dog a nice outing (he has lots of little friends at school!)

But twice in the last couple weeks, I've had to cancel plans to walk because my daughter's backpack was just too heavy -- even for me to carry. We live about 3/4 to one mile away (a 15 minute walk), so it matters how heavy the backpack is.

I know cw can't solve this problem, but I wonder if there would be more kids walking if fewer books had to be schlepped home.

[Bill Z]

while I condone the walking/riding to school, there is no way in heck, my 7 year old is walking or riding his bike 3.8 miles down 45 mph streets to get to school.

Google puts walking at 1 hour 18 minutes, by car it's 10 minutes, they don't list by bike but I bet it would be 1/2 hour at the speed my son can peddle.

Once he switches to Folsom Middle school (much closer to home), then I expect him to walk or peddle almost everyday, maybe catch a ride to school if it's raining.

[cw68]

Tony & CW, No where did I ever say I was opposed to this event, I'm just simply asking is the benefit we as a community receive greater than the cost to put it on?

CW made the comment about having 1200 school children eschewing riding in a car. All I was attempting to do was to enlighten people into realizing there are hidden costs/effects with programs that we sometimes don't factor in when evaluating programs, by asking questions about additional car trips.

If we are ever going to solve our huge issues facing this country we all are going to have to start looking at cost/benefit effects of programs and that includes hidden costs as well.

Its good that we have concerned citizens willing to invest time to bring indeas/programs that can improve our quality of life. At the same time we can't allow ourselves to become so personally involved in these program that one can't be open to the possibility of an objective evaluation to verify wether or not ANY program's benefit outweighs the cost.

I truly wish the program all the best, hope it is successful and everyone learns from this.

Robert, you didn't ask open-ended questions to find an honest, unbiased answer. You were looking for answers that supported your opinion.

You didn't ask how much it cost, how it was funded, how many trips organizing involved or what kind of transportation was involved in these trips, how it was organized, who was involved, how many officials attended, etc.

You made a whole bunch of assumptions based on NO knowledge of the program/event or how it is run. You didn't ask how many people were involved, what long-term affects were expected or proved, what tangible and intangible benefits it provides or anything of the sort. All you did was shoot it down in the guise of "asking questions."

This forum just sucks sometimes.

[tony]

while I condone the walking/riding to school, there is no way in heck, my 7 year old is walking or riding his bike 3.8 miles down 45 mph streets to get to school.

Google puts walking at 1 hour 18 minutes, by car it's 10 minutes, they don't list by bike but I bet it would be 1/2 hour at the speed my son can peddle.

Once he switches to Folsom Middle school (much closer to home), then I expect him to walk or peddle almost everyday, maybe catch a ride to school if it's raining.

Bill: While I would generally say a 4 mile commute is about the limit for a 7 year-old, I have one who thinks nothing of riding 3.8 miles (he's done over 25 mi in a day on his own bike, 40+ on a trailer bike). For the average 7 year old, a 10 mph pace is realistic (not including stops, etc.). So your 30-minute estimate is probably about right (although he would get faster if he did it on a regular basis), depending on route. With some notable exceptions, you can get from almost anywhere in Folsom to any school in Folsom without riding on 45 mph+ arterials (though oyu may have to cross one or two). If you send me your home and school locations, I could suggest a route. It may turn out to be more than 3.8 miles, but that can add to the adventure! I mentioned a trailer bike before. These are greaet tools for extending the range of a child's riding. They also can allow him/her to commute only one way by bike, and the other by car. We often do this because of our carpool.

[Robert Giacometti]

Robert, you didn't ask open-ended questions to find an honest, unbiased answer. You were looking for answers that supported your opinion.

You didn't ask how much it cost, how it was funded, how many trips organizing involved or what kind of transportation was involved in these trips, how it was organized, who was involved, how many officials attended, etc.

You made a whole bunch of assumptions based on NO knowledge of the program/event or how it is run. You didn't ask how many people were involved, what long-term affects were expected or proved, what tangible and intangible benefits it provides or anything of the sort. All you did was shoot it down in the guise of "asking questions."

This forum just sucks sometimes.

You are correct I didn't ask touchy feely questions, I simply wanted answers to how many miles cars are driven because of RYBTSD.

You made the claim that there were 1200 Students not ridng in cars on this day in the past, but that is ONLY one segment that needs to be calculated and you got PO'd at me for asking about the other half, calling me negative and asking why do I want to always shoot things down. I NEVER tried to shoot anything down , but wanted to look at the whole project not just one side of the ledger.

If we create 1500 rides to save 1200, in my mind we really aren't having a successful day in protecting the environment. RYBTSD, sounds good and feels good, but what is the bottom line? If this is just the incubation for better results for less miles driven going forward I can live with that and be supportive of it.

However if this is nothing more than a dog & pony show and photo op for politicians to make all of us feel good. Like we are really doing something, when in realty we are driving more miles collectively. Then IMO, we need to stop doing these types of things , because we CAN"T be wasting our tax dollars on touchy, make us feel good projects any more!

If you feel I've said something inappropriate or called you a name or even if you feel I implied that I did, ( because its you) let me know and I will apologize.

[supermom]

This forum just sucks sometimes.

Take heart.

You and your walk and bike program inspired a mom to "let go" and a kiddo to get over her fear of being alone and do exactly what the program is meant to do.

She walks to school everyday.

[tony]

You are correct I didn't ask touchy feely questions, I simply wanted answers to how many miles cars are driven because of RYBTSD.

You made the claim that there were 1200 Students not ridng in cars on this day in the past, but that is ONLY one segment that needs to be calculated and you got PO'd at me for asking about the other half, calling me negative and asking why do I want to always shoot things down. I NEVER tried to shoot anything down , but wanted to look at the whole project not just one side of the ledger.

If we create 1500 rides to save 1200, in my mind we really aren't having a successful day in protecting the environment. RYBTSD, sounds good and feels good, but what is the bottom line? If this is just the incubation for better results for less miles driven going forward I can live with that and be supportive of it.

However if this is nothing more than a dog & pony show and photo op for politicians to make all of us feel good. Like we are really doing something, when in realty we are driving more miles collectively. Then IMO, we need to stop doing these types of things , because we CAN"T be wasting our tax dollars on touchy, make us feel good projects any more!

If you feel I've said something inappropriate or called you a name or even if you feel I implied that I did, ( because its you) let me know and I will apologize.

Robert: The problem here is you keep asserting, based on no evidence whatsoever, that somehow kids walking and biking to school results in more people driving. Though I'm not aware of anyone doing a study of one of the Folsom school programs, your assertion has been soundly shot down by common sense and the observations of those who have participated. Would you have us spend taxpayer dollars to hire a consultant to count cars on walk and bike to school day? In what scenario could you possibly come up with 1500 rides to save 1200? Even if every kid who walked/biked to school got picked up by their parent in a car (clearly not the case), that would be 1200 rides, assuming none of them carpooled.

Or your transit scenario: assuming that transit riders drove instead of taking transit on that day because it affected their schedule. In the Sacramento region, the transit mode share is about 5%. In Folsom, it is certainly less than that. So, 5% of 1200 is 60 parents. If every parent who normally takes transit drove that day (again, highly unlikely), that would add 60 round trips. That leaves about 240 trips by car for planning and fire department visits. Robert, you say you want facts, but you're spouting nonsensical numbers to make a point. Why?

Dog and pony show? Who said anything about politicians? They have nothing to do with it, and to my knowledge, other than having police and fire come out to some events, no politicians attended any of these events. But if they did, it benefits the program by helping to lend a sense of legitimacy and importance, which can help overcome the strong prejudice against walking and biking that currently exists.

Tax dollars? As CW pointed out, these are grass roots events, funded by donations and parent's clubs, etc. The schools had to be talked into letting these events happen.

Now, if you're talking about the overall Safe Routes to School (SR2S) movement, it's a little different story. There are both state and federal programs that fund SR2S programs. However, the vast majority of that money is for infrastructure, mostly sidewalk gap closures and intersection safety improvements. Locally, SACOG has indirectly provided a small amount of taxpayer support through the local Transportation Management Associations (our local one is the 50Corridor TMA), who have provided support for local SR2S endeavors (although much of that has been in rounding up qualified volunteers to help with bike safety education).

And there has been ongoing evaluation of the effectiveness of the state and federal programs. Here's a link to the Marin County SR2S (the nation's first) program's evaluation Marin Evaluation

Reduction in Automobile Trips
Marin County's Safe Routes to School program continued to make significant progress
in reducing the number of automobile trips that drop off and pick up students from
school. The survey showed a reduction of 13% in single student “chauffeured trips”.

Finally, using terms like "Touchy feel good projects", when you know nothing about the programs, belies your bias. You started with a preconceived assumption that these programs are ineffective and wasteful, and then, as CW has already pointed out, designed a bunch of rhetorical questions that would suggest your assumption was true, and then finish by pronouncing the programs touchy feely wastes pof taxpayers' money.

If IW&BTSD makes kids and parents feel better, it's because they are healthier after learning to build a little exercise into their daily routine and because their kids are learning important life skills that they cannot learn while being chauffeured around in a car. It makes the teachers feel better because the kids show up to school awake and alert. It makes taxpayers feel better because they will spend less money on healthcare if we stem the rise in obesity and all of it's related health complications. It should make people like you, Robert, feel better because there are less cars on the road to get in your way.

[cw68]

Take heart.

You and your walk and bike program inspired a mom to "let go" and a kiddo to get over her fear of being alone and do exactly what the program is meant to do.

She walks to school everyday.

Thanks, Supermom. This is exactly the result I hoped would come out of this when first starting this in 2006. Good for you and your daughter.