30 replies to this topic

[JRudi]

Robert, my problem is with the notion that we all think it is the public employee's fault we are in the situation we're currently facing. The garbage truck driver, park maintenance worker, police officer, and fireman aren't the reason we gave the 'bridge consultant' a no bid contract. They aren't the reason why PERS was changed to 3% @ 50. They aren't the reason why the CITY chose to spend $16 million and counting on a NOT NEEDED taj mahal library. Of course they want the best compensation and benefits they can obtain. Who doesn't? You're telling me that if you could get better benefits, retirement, etc. from your employer, or could maximize your profits and margins to a greater extent, you wouldn't?

MikeinFolsom, I have followed this forum for quite a while, but have not, until now, posted anything. However, reviewing this and some of the other threads related to city politics has compelled me to finally share my views.

I could not disagree more with your argument that it is reasonable for employees, including public employees, to try and get as much pay out of their employers as possible. Perhaps this is appropriate (and accepted) in the private sector, but it certainly is not appropriate in the public sector. My belief is that those who choose a career in the public sector should do so for the purpose of being a public servant. Compensation should be secondary. To do anything different would divert focus away from the commitment of serving the public.

Unfortunately, not everyone who enters into public service does so for this reason. Many do so for what I believe are the wrong reasons. Often, these people want power, recognition, and even financial rewards. Unfortunately, these are often the people who rise to the top of public agencies, such as what occurred at the City of Bell.

The city of Folsom recently posted salaries of their top management employees on their website, and some of the numbers are staggering. Like all government employees, they deserve a fair salary, but fair means something that is in-line with what is being paid to their counterparts in nearby agencies. But, in Folsom's case, their police chief is being paid far more than any other chief in the Sacramento area, except for the city of Sacramento (which his salary is only slightly less than). And, to argue that he should be paid comparable to the police chief of Sacramento would be totally absurd. Regardless of how good he is (and from what I have heard he's not that good, although I'm sure he thinks he is), his salary should be comparable to similar sized cities near us such as Roseville, Rocklin, Davis and Citrus Heights. However, at $210,000 per year, his salary is as much as $50k to $60k a year more than the police chiefs in most cities in our area. Accepting a salary such as this, particularly in these times when public services are being cut and public employees are being laid off, boils down to just flat-out greed. And, for the person who approved this (the city manager), it shows a severe lack of judgment and irresponsibility on his part.

When I first saw this, I was sickened. Although it is not in the same league as the City of Bell, it is still a rip-off of the taxpayers of Folsom, of which I am one. This is wrong, and this needs to be corrected immediately. And, in this case, corrected means the police chief needs to go, and the person directly responsible for this needs to go as well (the city manager). There is no excuse for this!!

[JRudi]

Market value. I don't think our city pays anyone an outlandish salary. If you're willing to cut their pay by 50%, have at it, but I have the feeling any amount will never be enough. Robert G has a pretty big flapper, why doesn't he attempt to gain employment with the city and effect change from within? Why not run for council? I too know it is much easier to sit on the sidelines and lob hand grenades. As a matter of fact, instead of making what you make from your employer, I challenge you to walk into your supervisor's office tomorrow and offer a 10% pay reduction. Just because. Doubt you will, so quit saying other people need to.

Appropriate compensation for public employees should not be determined based purely on a "market value." For example, it would be inappropriate to establish folsom's city attorney's salary based on what attorneys, in general, make. Public employees should, and usually do, accept the fact that their pay is less than their counterparts in the private sector. As I've stated before, their primary focus should be to serve the public. Compensation should be secondary. They deserve a fair salary, and fair should be measured based on what their counterparts in nearby public agencies are paid. It should not be based on what someone at Intel or Aerojet are paid, nor should it be based on what the position is paid in a city six times our size and with a crime rate that far exceeds ours.

The increased job security and benefits that public employees receive are intended to make-up for some of their reduced pay, but it should not be expected to be a straight "dollar for dollar" exchange either. Again, public employees should accept that their compensation should not be equal to their counterparts in the private sector.

Anytime that a public employee's salary is allowed to creep up above what their public counterparts make is a sign of trouble. This is what happened in Roseville where the prior city manager there convinced their city council that he should be paid comparable to the city manager in Beverly Hills. The result was his base salary was allowed, over time, to increase to over $275k annually, and he was given additional "cash out" benefits that increased this figure to well over $300k per year. This changed his approach to his job, and resulted in him no longer being an effective public servant. He lost sight of his mission.

It appears that this, I'm afraid, may have occured with our police chief. His salary has been allowed to creep up well above what his counterparts make in our nearby cities. And, I'm sure if you were to dig deeper, you would find that he receives other compensation that probably brings his total annual pay from the city to close to $300k. Most physicians don't make this kind of money. Perhaps the council member who regularly posts on this forum can comment on this. My understanding is that they are "very close" friends. Birds of a feather...

[MikeinFolsom]

My problem with your reply is the fact that you seem to keep repeating that a public employee should only be there to "serve the public", and compensation should be an afterthought. How absurd is that? Public employee doesn't mean public doormat. Some....not all....positions in government DO require specialized training and particular skill sets. To think that someone would go out, obtain said education, and then sell it to the lowest bidder just so they could perform public work is ridiculous, at best. What world do you live in?

Anyone here have a 4 year degree? Higher than that? Do you feel like taking a position and earning entry level wages for the rest of your life, just so you can serve all of mankind? Your thoughts and aims keep referring to the current police chief. Almost makes me think you are someone scorned and has a bone to pick. I urge you to look past the police chief, whom you have mentioned now in a few of your posts, and look to the common wage worker in the city. Tell me Mr. Policeman or Mr. Fireman, Mr. Garbageman, etc. makes too much money. Then I'll know you've been smoking the good loco weed and I'll let it rest at that.

[JRudi]

My problem with your reply is the fact that you seem to keep repeating that a public employee should only be there to "serve the public", and compensation should be an afterthought. How absurd is that? Public employee doesn't mean public doormat. Some....not all....positions in government DO require specialized training and particular skill sets. To think that someone would go out, obtain said education, and then sell it to the lowest bidder just so they could perform public work is ridiculous, at best. What world do you live in?

Anyone here have a 4 year degree? Higher than that? Do you feel like taking a position and earning entry level wages for the rest of your life, just so you can serve all of mankind? Your thoughts and aims keep referring to the current police chief. Almost makes me think you are someone scorned and has a bone to pick. I urge you to look past the police chief, whom you have mentioned now in a few of your posts, and look to the common wage worker in the city. Tell me Mr. Policeman or Mr. Fireman, Mr. Garbageman, etc. makes too much money. Then I'll know you've been smoking the good loco weed and I'll let it rest at that.

MikeinFolsom: You're missing my point. No where did I state, or imply, that public employees should work for slave wages. As I indicated on more than one occassion in my previous posts on this issue, public employees deserve a fair wage. But fair should not be measured based on their counterparts in the private sector. Public employee salaries are generally less than private sector salaries for the same professions because of the better benefits and job security typically associated with the public sector.

Now, let's address the point of fire and police employees. In some agencies, including Folsom, total pay and benefits of these employees has gone way out of wack to the point where some have made ridiculous incomes. How about a fire captain that makes over $225k per year? It happened here in Folsom, and that occurred within the past couple of years. This is more than many physicians make. And, the firefighters make these incomes with only working ten days a month. I don't care how you try to spin this - this is a rip off of taxpayers.

And, since you raised the issue of the police chief, his income falls in this same category. Regardless of how good some may argue that he is, no one that does his job for a mid-sized city in our region with our low crime rate deserves that kind of money. Again, it's a rip off of taxpayers. If he wanted to make a quarter of a million dollars a year working in the Sacramento area, and especially in these times, he should go back to school and become a physician (specifically, a surgeon). I wish him luck getting into medical school.

[MikeinFolsom]

Phew!!! Now I now where you are coming from.

Show me a Fire Captain that made 225k a few years ago working only 10 days a month. How uneducated of a statement can you make???? First off.....not a Fire Captain. Maybe a Battalion Chief. Oh yeah, he didn't ONLY work 10 days a month. I do believe there was a Battalion Chief off duty on injury during that time. Can't run a Fire Department shift without one. So a few of that 225k was probably in OT hours. A LOT of OT hours. You have to fill the shift.

Just so we're clear on the subject.......10 shifts of 24 hours equals 240 hours a month. A third of a person's life. Add a few 24hr shifts of OT into the mix and you start creeping up towards 1/2 of a person's life. I'm guessing you're a 40/hr work week type guy. 160/hrs a month, roughly. Here's an idea....be at your place of employment another 80 hours that month, and tell me how you're doing. Sure, you can eat, sleep, watch TV, whatever you'd like, but be there for the extra 80 and let me know how you and your family are doing. Wait a sec....throw in a few more hours on top of that. Maybe another 96. EVERY MONTH. Do that for a while. Then tell me if you're earning a few more dollars than what your base salary is.

So your "ripoff to taxpayers" idiotic statement is nothing more than that. If you're going to come onto a public forum and hop onto a soapbox, please do us a favor and have your facts lined up BEFORE the pie hole starts flapping. 10 days a month......give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!

[JRudi]

Phew!!! Now I now where you are coming from.

Show me a Fire Captain that made 225k a few years ago working only 10 days a month. How uneducated of a statement can you make???? First off.....not a Fire Captain. Maybe a Battalion Chief. Oh yeah, he didn't ONLY work 10 days a month. I do believe there was a Battalion Chief off duty on injury during that time. Can't run a Fire Department shift without one. So a few of that 225k was probably in OT hours. A LOT of OT hours. You have to fill the shift.

Just so we're clear on the subject.......10 shifts of 24 hours equals 240 hours a month. A third of a person's life. Add a few 24hr shifts of OT into the mix and you start creeping up towards 1/2 of a person's life. I'm guessing you're a 40/hr work week type guy. 160/hrs a month, roughly. Here's an idea....be at your place of employment another 80 hours that month, and tell me how you're doing. Sure, you can eat, sleep, watch TV, whatever you'd like, but be there for the extra 80 and let me know how you and your family are doing. Wait a sec....throw in a few more hours on top of that. Maybe another 96. EVERY MONTH. Do that for a while. Then tell me if you're earning a few more dollars than what your base salary is.

So your "ripoff to taxpayers" idiotic statement is nothing more than that. If you're going to come onto a public forum and hop onto a soapbox, please do us a favor and have your facts lined up BEFORE the pie hole starts flapping. 10 days a month......give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!

MikeinFolsom: In know what these guys (firefighters) do. I was one once, and I have friends that have been in the fire profession as well. It is a noble profession, but how overtime is assigned has become a scam. No one, and I don't care how many hours they have to sleep in a station, deserve the kind of money some of them have made within the past few years. Did you see the article that appeared in the Sacramento Bee several months back that listed the compensation of firefighters with Sac Metro? A captain there made over $200k, and about $100k of this was overtime. My understanding (from a reliable source within the city) is that within the past few years Folsom has had captains (and perhaps battalion chiefs as well) that have made well in excess of $200k. This didn't occur within the past year, but the one or two years prior (before some controls were placed on overtime, I understand).

I know physicians who work an average of 80 hours a week and they don't make this kind of money. And, they don't get to sleep when they are getting paid. Plus, they had to complete eight years of college, and four years of residency at practically minimum wage to get there.

Please don't get me wrong - again, I think firefighting is a very noble profession. But, unfortunately, the way they are compensated needs to be reformed.

[MikeinFolsom]

The picture is coming clearer about all of your posts now. Sorry, but look further into the books. Pretty much an isolated case a few years ago with ONE person maybe making that much for the year. Again.....when you work an extra 1/3 of a year, you're bound to make more money. What's a person to do? Volunteer your time? For someone that "once was and has friends that do" you sure sound like someone on the outside poking sticks around to see what falls. I don't think you have the faintest clue as to how anything in public safety works. Maybe you should find other "friends", sounds like they haven't been informative quite enough? Then you would know how/why OT exists.

[JRudi]

The picture is coming clearer about all of your posts now. Sorry, but look further into the books. Pretty much an isolated case a few years ago with ONE person maybe making that much for the year. Again.....when you work an extra 1/3 of a year, you're bound to make more money. What's a person to do? Volunteer your time? For someone that "once was and has friends that do" you sure sound like someone on the outside poking sticks around to see what falls. I don't think you have the faintest clue as to how anything in public safety works. Maybe you should find other "friends", sounds like they haven't been informative quite enough? Then you would know how/why OT exists.

The solutiion to the overtime scam is very simple - do away with the constant staffing model. Then, firefighters will stop calling in sick so their buddies can get called in to work overtime at double time. And, believe me, people won't begin dieing on the streets of Folsom if this occurs. That's just a scare tactic.

Simply stated, the overtime thing is a scam no matter how you try to spin it. Taxpayers deserve better than this. And, if these guys were truly dedicated public servants, they would put an end to this scam themselves, especially in these economic times.

Also, the constrant crap you hear from them about saving lives and using that to justify their inflated salaries - doctors and nurses save lives daily, and I don't hear them constantly reminding others of this.

You and I come from two totally different cultures. I believe public employees should put their obligation to serve the public first, and expect only reasonable and fair compensation in return. You believe as long as someone saves a life once or twice in a career, that this somehow justifies them demanding whatever salary they want.

The waste in public safety far exceeds that anywhere else in local government. If Folsom doesn't start getting a handle on this, and I have absolutely no confidence that it will with this current make-up of the city council, we are destined to the same fate as the city of Vallejo - we will go bankrupt! Then, there will be no services.

[MikeinFolsom]

I'd be better off explaining things to my 3 year old. Done.

[JRudi]

I'd be better off explaining things to my 3 year old. Done.

I would hope that your three-year-old would understand the concept of greed, because that is all this is.

This is a culture that has been bred into fire departments around the country, and it is especially strong in Folsom, as you have demonstrated in your posts. We need people on the city council who are willing to challenge this and change it without the fear of being discredited by the fire union.

[camay2327]

We have an ex-fire fighter on the city council and he lets us know it every time he can.

He won't vote to change anything.

[JRudi]

We have an ex-fire fighter on the city council and he lets us know it every time he can.

He won't vote to change anything.

No argument here.

But, just to clarify my position, waste is rampant throughout city hall. This is just one example, but it comprises a significant portion of the waste. Not until we have a majority on the city council who are willing to implement some reforms will anything be done about it - unless people like us expose it and force them to do something about it out of public embarrassment.

[old soldier]

I guess you could say our soldiers get paid as well when they are sleeping...fire fighters do good things, and so do soldiers. whose job has more danger, but you would wonder why fire fighters make so much more money...

why...soldiers can't call in sick and they don't get overtime..or have a union whose endorsement seems to be so important to the political types....

if I was a politician I would hope the vets endorsement would be higher than a firefighter...they do good deeds every day, most have better attitudes than some doctors I know and they are very very smart....heard some place it was harder to get into vet school than med school..

[JRudi]

I guess you could say our soldiers get paid as well when they are sleeping...fire fighters do good things, and so do soldiers. whose job has more danger, but you would wonder why fire fighters make so much more money...

why...soldiers can't call in sick and they don't get overtime..or have a union whose endorsement seems to be so important to the political types....

if I was a politician I would hope the vets endorsement would be higher than a firefighter...they do good deeds every day, most have better attitudes than some doctors I know and they are very very smart....heard some place it was harder to get into vet school than med school..

Old Soldier: I can't take issue with anything you wrote here. I do believe fire fighting to be a very noble profession. The problem is that within the past decade or so the culture has changed within the profession where they are somehow able to justify in their minds their excessive salaries and benefits because they do good things. Many professions do good things, including teachers, doctors and nurses, but you don't hear them expounding about the good things they do. Also, you don't hear of them manipulating the system to increase their pay either, which is precisely what fire fighters have done, especially in this community.

I believe this boils down to people having become too greedy. At one point it was limited to just a few professions (such as attorneys and mortgage brokers), but it has seemed to spread to other professions. Is this a sign of the times because so much emphasis is being placed on wealth and material possessions? Look at the people who seem to be admired the most in the press these days. It's no longer the people who are leading a cause to better society, but the wealthy such as Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and Donald Trump. I don't get it.

[Redone]

In the end, it's about the ability to pay ...