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E. Natoma & Folsom Lake Crossing


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#16 tony

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 03:03 PM

I understand there's room to pull in that lane on a red, but what's the point if you see there's a steady stream of cars coming and there won't be an opportunity to merge once you get to the end? I think it's safer to stay stopped at the red until you see an opportunity or opening. That way, you have a better view of what's coming, who may be changing lanes from the No. 1 lane to the No. 2 (if they don't think turn signals are optional), and you don't have that impatient driver riding your bumper rear-end you when you get to the end of the merge lane and can't merge.

[Irish1, I always forget the lane numbering. Is No. 1 the slow lane or the fast lane?]

This brings up an interesting question: are these acceleration lanes (the merge lane after you turn right) really a good idea at all, especially when paired up with free right turn lanes (a.k.a. slip lanes)? As this thread points out, many people don't know how to use them in the first place, making them a risk for rear-end collisions (not the most serious type of collision, I might add, but worth considering). Furthermore, as Ducky points out, these lanes, which are suburban adaptations of freeway merge lanes, don't really help much, because at intersections controlled by traffic signals, the traffic tends to come in fairly tight platoons separated by large gaps. Cars in the platoons tend to be too close together to merge safely, while the gaps between platoons tend to very large. The result is that, even those who take the right turn and start to use the merge lane end up stopping to find a gap if there is traffic. And if there is not traffic, then you don't need a merge lane in the first place.

But why, you ask, even if they are not always effective (I will grant that occasionally they are helpful when traffic more spread out, as it sometimes is at this intersection due to the long distance between lights) would we want to get rid of them? Well, I already mentioned the rear-end collision risk. But the bigger reason is that they are a waste of pavement and the real-estate on which it sits. This extra pavement adds 12 to 16' to the width of an intersection, creating more run-off, more heat, using more resources, making it more hazardous for bicyclists passing through the intersection (from the bridge, in this case) and, maybe most importantly, making the crossing for pedestrians longer and less safe (particularly where there is a free right turn, meaning cars never stop). And why should you, the average motorist, care about pedestrians having to walk another 12-16'? Well, beyond the obvious inconvenience for you them, that extra pavement width results in an extra 3 to 5 seconds of pedestrian signal phase every time a pedestrian (or bicyclist) chooses to press the button to cross. Now, that may not sound like much, but it adds up (if you have one on every leg of the intersection, that can be 20 seconds added to the overall cycle length) that kind of time drives traffic signal engineers and people sitting at lights nuts. Finally, IMHO, they make intersections more dangerous (especially for pedestrians crossing the street the cars are turning on to) by further encouraging people not to actually stop when they make right turns on red (since they don't have to worry about getting hit by another car until after making the turn).

To my knowledge, there are no studies proving these facilities are safer for motorists, but there is plenty of evidence that they are more dangerous for all other users of the road; yet another example of how our transportation system caters to the convenience of one mode over the safety (and convenience) of all others.

#17 irish1

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 03:37 PM

I understand there's room to pull in that lane on a red, but what's the point if you see there's a steady stream of cars coming and there won't be an opportunity to merge once you get to the end? I think it's safer to stay stopped at the red until you see an opportunity or opening. That way, you have a better view of what's coming, who may be changing lanes from the No. 1 lane to the No. 2 (if they don't think turn signals are optional), and you don't have that impatient driver riding your bumper rear-end you when you get to the end of the merge lane and can't merge.

[Irish1, I always forget the lane numbering. Is No. 1 the slow lane or the fast lane?]


Hey, Ducky... The lanes are numbered from center of road, and to the right in their respective direction. Fast lane is #1. And while referencing this particular intersection, and the right turn concept, I think your response is on target. Not all drivers see the same things, or have the same acuity when dealing with line of sight and on-coming traffic. To stop at the limit line at a red, and await a safe opening in traffic (or, the green arrow) is probably the most think-safe way to approach the matter. Stopping at the limit line on a red, and then turning into the 'launch lane' (merge lane) to enter the traffic flow, is also cool. It really comes down to each drivers comfort and safety zone.

#18 SacKen

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 04:12 PM

1) Haha... I haven't seen a light that is red for only 15-seconds since 1983.

2) Those lanes exist so you can accelerate and merge into traffic. Merging is a basic component of driving. Unfortunately, most drivers in California totally SUCK at all aspects of merging.

3) When you accelerate to the speed of traffic and properly merge, it's amazing how smooth the action is. People see you in that little lane accelerating and properly make a space for you to merge into the flow of traffic, as the process is designed to work.

4) While I fully understand the concern that "not all drivers see the same things, or have the same acuity when dealing with line of sight and on-coming traffic", I say that if you can't perform the basic action of accelerating and merging into the flow of traffic then you shouldn't be driving. Please. Please. PLEASE. DON'T DRIVE.

If you are holding-up traffic at the turn to get on the Folsom Blvd. bridge and the person behind you is yelling out of their window, "ACCELERATE AND MERGE!!!!!" it's probably me.
"Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!" -- George Carlin

#19 ducky

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 04:19 PM

Hey, Ducky... The lanes are numbered from center of road, and to the right in their respective direction. Fast lane is #1. And while referencing this particular intersection, and the right turn concept, I think your response is on target. Not all drivers see the same things, or have the same acuity when dealing with line of sight and on-coming traffic. To stop at the limit line at a red, and await a safe opening in traffic (or, the green arrow) is probably the most think-safe way to approach the matter. Stopping at the limit line on a red, and then turning into the 'launch lane' (merge lane) to enter the traffic flow, is also cool. It really comes down to each drivers comfort and safety zone.


Irish1, thanks for the numbering explanation.

To expand on what you and Tony have touched on, if you look at CV's aerial photo, there's a bike lane there, too. I think an added danger would be the merge lane lends not only to people rolling through the red into the merge lane, but also to swing wide without checking for bicyclists.

#20 ducky

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 04:22 PM

1) Haha... I haven't seen a light that is red for only 15-seconds since 1983.

2) Those lanes exist so you can accelerate and merge into traffic. Merging is a basic component of driving. Unfortunately, most drivers in California totally SUCK at all aspects of merging.

3) When you accelerate to the speed of traffic and properly merge, it's amazing how smooth the action is. People see you in that little lane accelerating and properly make a space for you to merge into the flow of traffic, as the process is designed to work.

4) While I fully understand the concern that "not all drivers see the same things, or have the same acuity when dealing with line of sight and on-coming traffic", I say that if you can't perform the basic action of accelerating and merging into the flow of traffic then you shouldn't be driving. Please. Please. PLEASE. DON'T DRIVE.

If you are holding-up traffic at the turn to get on the Folsom Blvd. bridge and the person behind you is yelling out of their window, "ACCELERATE AND MERGE!!!!!" it's probably me.


You can yell at me all you want. I've almost gotten immune to people honking when I won't turn at the "no right turn" light at the light rail tracks. If there's cars that have come down off that hill and are speeding in a constant line, I'm not trusting them to "properly make a space" for me. In fact, my experience is the opposite. You turn on your signal indicator and it's like lane gladiators to see if they can squeeze you out.

#21 SacKen

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 04:39 PM

You can yell at me all you want. I've almost gotten immune to people honking when I won't turn at the "no right turn" light at the light rail tracks.

That's illegal. You should sit there and wait. I do the same thing because it is the law. Doing so in the case we are discussing is selfishly making others wait for you due to your own lack of confidence and/or driving skills. With the exception of the occasional arsehat that does it for the sole purpose of ticking off the people behind them because of the delusions that make them think it is their duty. Side-note, those are usually the same socially inept people that enjoy going "slow" in the #1 lane.

If there's cars that have come down off that hill and are speeding in a constant line, I'm not trusting them to "properly make a space" for me. In fact, my experience is the opposite. You turn on your signal indicator and it's like lane gladiators to see if they can squeeze you out.

Contrary to the way most Californians drive, merging is an active process where you gauge the traffic and make adjustments until you have successfully merged. You don't just blindly assume that car will make room. So you adjust and go in behind them. In fact, my experience of merging onto the Folsom Blvd bridge almost daily since it was built is that the jerk-off that speeds up is rare and the spot behind him is plenty open and available for safe merging.
"Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!" -- George Carlin

#22 ducky

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 04:59 PM

That's illegal. You should sit there and wait. I do the same thing because it is the law. Doing so in the case we are discussing is selfishly making others wait for you due to your own lack of confidence and/or driving skills. With the exception of the occasional arsehat that does it for the sole purpose of ticking off the people behind them because of the delusions that make them think it is their duty. Side-note, those are usually the same socially inept people that enjoy going "slow" in the #1 lane.


Contrary to the way most Californians drive, merging is an active process where you gauge the traffic and make adjustments until you have successfully merged. You don't just blindly assume that car will make room. So you adjust and go in behind them. In fact, my experience of merging onto the Folsom Blvd bridge almost daily since it was built is that the jerk-off that speeds up is rare and the spot behind him is plenty open and available for safe merging.


I don't disagree with what you have written above except I don't think the jerk-offs are all that rare where the "Take turns" sign is on the bridge.

I'm just saying you shouldn't just assume I'm an arsehat or inept because I haven't zoomed into that merge lane right away. Same goes for not turning right immediately when a light turns green. What you might not be seeing is a pedestrian I have to wait for or a car running the red.

I've got 32 years of driving experience with one speeding ticket (still upset about that blemish) and two accidents where the other drivers were 100 percent at fault (one lost their brakes and turned right instead of rear-ending someone at the red and ran into me and another vehicle that had cleared the intersection. The other was a rear-ender while I was stopped at a red light). I grew up driving in L.A. so I know how to merge in heavy traffic. I've worked in SF and driven there just fine. In fact, my job has me on the road more than most. I guess I'm more concerned with being safe for everybody than what others think of my driving skills.

I'll apologize ahead of time for costing somebody 2 to 10 seconds out of their day because I'm trying to be safe.




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