25 replies to this topic

[folsombound]

First, she was in a vegetative state for fifteen years. FIFTEEN YEARS!!!! Doctors did agree on her condition. They agreed that her brain trauma was "irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."

Second, brain scans confirmed no brain activity was occurring when she did have her eyes open. Her parents believed that's was a sign of intelligence, but we all know beliefs do not make things become truths.

She was brain dead, as confirmed by her doctors, and there is reason to keep someone alive like that, let alone for fifteen years. Any hope her parents had was false hope and was confirmed by science, which trumps hope. It may sound cold and harsh, but it is true. The outrage about Terry Schiavo should be the fact that we let someone lay there for fifteen years without ending her suffering, if any, earlier. That is dispicable way to treat someone's life.

+100!

[sat]

Hospice is for patients whose condition is terminal. Their philosophy is to ease suffering but not prolong death. There is a difference between extending life and prolonging death. This is very specific to me right now because my father passed away in December after a surprisingly long battle with brain cancer.

My father, Don, was placed in hospice care in September while still living with my Mom in their condo in Chicago. The last weekend in November he was moved into a nursing home because my mother, a registered nurse, was no longer able to safely care for him. I Planned a trip home December 4 to see him. That morning my father aspirated and he wasn't expected to live into the afternoon. He passed away five days later.

I spent those five days at the nursing home, sleeping the night away in the recliner next to his bed. He was only somewhat lucid a few times. My father, a brilliant man who really loved interacting with and stimulating others, was long gone. The tumor grew and disabled functions like swallowing. He wasn't able to invest food and, at the end, even water. It would have been possible to give him an IV for fluids and nourishment, but to what end? What other horrors would he have to go through to finally die?

Luckily, my father did very well for a long time and only had a short window of hell. Those last few days were so sad. The day he died, while I was sleeping next to him, I told my Dad to go, that it was okay. Having him starve to death was, without a doubt, the most humane thing for him. He was able to have a sliver of dignity and went out in the way we've been dying for the vast majority of time we've been on this planet.

[momof1]

First, she was in a vegetative state for fifteen years. FIFTEEN YEARS!!!! Doctors did agree on her condition. They agreed that her brain trauma was "irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."

Second, brain scans confirmed no brain activity was occurring when she did have her eyes open. Her parents believed that's was a sign of intelligence, but we all know beliefs do not make things become truths.

She was brain dead, as confirmed by her doctors, and there is reason to keep someone alive like that, let alone for fifteen years. Any hope her parents had was false hope and was confirmed by science, which trumps hope. It may sound cold and harsh, but it is true. The outrage about Terry Schiavo should be the fact that we let someone lay there for fifteen years without ending her suffering, if any, earlier. That is dispicable way to treat someone's life.

I'm sorry, but these two lines contradict each other, if she is brain dead, then please explain how she could be suffering.

I agree, if she was diagnosed as brain dead, no brain activity at all, then 15 years of life support was a complete waste of medical resources, but I'm not going to buy the argument she was suffering. You can't have it both ways.

[rpo]

I'm sorry, but these two lines contradict each other, if she is brain dead, then please explain how she could be suffering.

I agree, if she was diagnosed as brain dead, no brain activity at all, then 15 years of life support was a complete waste of medical resources, but I'm not going to buy the argument she was suffering. You can't have it both ways.

Go back and read what I wrote. That is why I wrote "if any". I never read anything that unequivocally stated she could not feel any pain based on testing. I highly doubt she could, since brain activity was non-existent, but I felt it was right to include the possibility in my previous post.

[maggiesmom]

I think it is very easy to say how you would do it and judge the decisions of others...until you actually have to make those decisions for someone you love.

I had to make such decisions..not starvation but end of life decisions for my husband who had suffered for way too long. It is a decision that still hangs heavy over me and most likely always will. It is an almost impossible decision for one to make and even though I knew of his wishes, it didn't make it any easier.

However, my decision and the whole end of life process was made much easier by the palliative care doctors and the ICU nurses that cared not only for my husband but for myself and daughter as well. They held our hands every step of the way and I could never thank them enough.

This is not an easy topic for anyone but certainly do not judge those who have been put into that situation...most likely, they are only doing the best that they can under horrific circumstances.

[supermom]

I think it is very easy to say how you would do it and judge the decisions of others...until you actually have to make those decisions for someone you love.

I had to make such decisions..not starvation but end of life decisions for my husband who had suffered for way too long. It is a decision that still hangs heavy over me and most likely always will. It is an almost impossible decision for one to make and even though I knew of his wishes, it didn't make it any easier.

However, my decision and the whole end of life process was made much easier by the palliative care doctors and the ICU nurses that cared not only for my husband but for myself and daughter as well. They held our hands every step of the way and I could never thank them enough.

This is not an easy topic for anyone but certainly do not judge those who have been put into that situation...most likely, they are only doing the best that they can under horrific circumstances.

Maggiesmom I remember you talking about his tumor before. I am sorry to hear that his condition turned out the way it did. My thoughts have turned to you often since you first shared with us that your husband was suffering a terrible condition. I hope your heart and mind heal and you have lasting and sweet memories of him.

[folsom500]

I see it a lot in the job I do. They give them huge portions of morphine. They drop the dose when the family comes to visit and wants the person to be lucid. It is more humane that way, I suppose. They do not feel their stomach shrinking and their body rapidly dying. They do not scream out. They do not do much of anything. All you hear is the last breath rattling through their windpipes; then they expire. They don't struggle. They don't cry in pain. When the struggle is lifted from the equation the death process is much shorter. The actual process takes 2 to 3 days.

I have no idea where people think this process is wrongfully painful, but the amount of morphine given these patients is enough to barely keep them from being dead. The nurses are compassionate. They stay with the patients even when the families won't or can't come; and they give all the biological and creature comforts they can to a bed ridden patient.

Morphine does NOT always eliminate the pain - no matter how much is given. As I said before I was witness to my best Friend dying of cancer and was also very aware of another Vet that I knew in his final weeks and days. The pain was so intense at times in both cases that hospice could not administer anything to make it subside completely and it lasted weeks not just 2-3 days as you suggest as they take away food ( my friend via a feeding tube) and then water... Yes they were often comatose but not always and even when they could not speak, they would cry out in such pain that you could hear it outside of their homes. And if you were sitting next to them in those last weeks, you would agree to change the way it is done.

The process of death itself is naturally painful. No one has such a right to expect otherwise. It is a natural process, same as birth and same as giving birth.
Same as skinning your knees when learning to walk; and breathing in a cold lungful of air in the winter when you have strep throat. It is the process of life.

I would disagree with your assertion that death itself is naturally painful. Many leave this place in their sleep without a sound.

A hospice will offer these services to the patient. And explain it to the patient's family. Oftentimes though, many families are unable to cope with the loss itself and are are unwilling to accept that the process has been evaluated as humanely as possible throughout countries all over the world. In fact, the US probably has the most compassionate view of the dying process than any other country in the world.

I would agree if all states were like Oregon, allowing for a dignified painless assisted death. I know other countries also use these methods while for most of the USA it is illegal... that does not suggest to me that the US has the most compassionate view of the dying process. Even third world countries have better end of life methods to eliminate the ongoing suffering and Pain than the US.

[swmr545]

Just a read on one person's experience of her elderly father:

http://www.dailynews...8736?source=rss

[folsom500]

Just a read on one person's experience of her elderly father:

http://www.dailynews.com/health/ci_19898736?source=rss

So what I see is that the family went against the fathers wishes and his written instructions and the cost was huge in $$$ - and he ended up loosing the battle which he wanted to avoid in the first place...

I say honor the wishes of those that are in your family or that you are a designated person on their written instructions... Do no prolong and DNR when they have made these choices ahead of time... That is just not fair to them nor fair to those that end up with the bill...

Appoint another person to be your health care "agent," with legal authority to make decisions about your medical care if you become unable to make these decisions for yourself.
Write down your preferences about accepting or refusing life-sustaining treatment such as CPR, feeding tubes or breathing machines, and about receiving or declining pain medications.
Express your wishes about organ and tissue donation.
A newer form, called a POLST, is intended to complement an "advance health care directive," particularly for those who are seriously ill or have been diagnosed with a terminal illness. Having a completed and fully executed POLST form means that your end-of-life health care wishes have been translated into actionable physician orders -- specifying whether only comfort care, limited intervention or full treatment is desired.

[supermom]

Morphine does NOT always eliminate the pain - no matter how much is given. As I said before I was witness to my best Friend dying of cancer and was also very aware of another Vet that I knew in his final weeks and days. The pain was so intense at times in both cases that hospice could not administer anything to make it subside completely and it lasted weeks not just 2-3 days as you suggest as they take away food ( my friend via a feeding tube) and then water... Yes they were often comatose but not always and even when they could not speak, they would cry out in such pain that you could hear it outside of their homes. And if you were sitting next to them in those last weeks, you would agree to change the way it is done.

Perhaps I should have been a little more clear. I was inferring to the time in (2-3 days) in which it takes to die after the decision has been made to withhold food and water. And there is no way to ideally know for sure that death is painless if you go in your sleep, especially since few do. But the physical process of your body struggling to survive strongly suggests that that is not possible, and that even in cases of dying in your sleep-unless you are comatose there is a reason to believe that the human brain is hardwired to "awake" you on some sort of level as your body struggles for its last breath and your organs expire. It is ok to disagree if you wish. You won't really know the answer to that until it happens.

I would disagree with your assertion that death itself is naturally painful. Many leave this place in their sleep without a sound.



I would agree if all states were like Oregon, allowing for a dignified painless assisted death. I know other countries also use these methods while for most of the USA it is illegal... that does not suggest to me that the US has the most compassionate view of the dying process. Even third world countries have better end of life methods to eliminate the ongoing suffering and Pain than the US.

You mean suicide? When would you consider it acceptable to do so? At the moment you find out you have cancer? Perhaps after you tell your family? Or you pay off your final bills? Sell out the last of your stocks? Watch that last world series? Climb that last mountain? Stroke your cat one last time?

What and how should that be regulated as you suggest? How would that affect insurance? What would happen if you were given the wrong persons diagnoses? (that does happen- I was diagnosed with breast cancer accidently when they got my cultures mixed up with someone elses).

Please don't think I am being unfeeling toward pain. I know it well. It is horrifyingly overwhelming.