106 replies to this topic

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Aces - I'm a tech toad and only care about data.  The political rants from either side (right AND left) have no influence on my thinking.  Of course politicians attempt to manipulate GW to their own advantage.  I ignore them.   So again, back to the data.  Science is true, even if you don't believe it.  The data show significant and rapid changes occurring in global climates.  These changes don't seem to be natural because they don't seem to  have occurred before.  GW is not a religion, it's a fact and it's going to be a rough ride.  The good news is both you and I will be long gone before things get really bad.

[The Average Joe]

Joe - you seem really impressed with yourself.

 

Nah, that's just confidence, but I'll admit, it may come off as smug online. I'll work on being more humble when I'm right.

 

1)  ... the rate of change is unprecedented. 

 

Unprecedented in a geologic blink of an eye. Not so historically.

 

  And "corollary does not equal causation"?  Come on.  I believe the causative relationship between CO2 and warming has been known for a couple decades.

 

Ummm, according to whom? That <cough> "scientist" Al Gore? Cite your source.  Actually CO2 typically lags a few hundred years behind rising temperatures. Which coincidentally, is exactly what you would expect based on established science.

 

3)  Citing Anasazi and Mayan migrations is irrelevant. 

 

It wasn't to them! One pf the prime theories as to why those civilizations ceased to flourish is that of changing climate. So that is indeed relevant to the topic..

 

Take a look at the migration currently underway from the Middle East to Europe. 

 

What a ridiculous example. Those relocations are for political/warfare reasons  To relate that to AGW is realism challenged thinking.. See, I tried so hard to be nice...

4)  Many of the problems the planet faces are the direct or indirect result of overpopulation.  Famine, rapid spread of disease, long lines at the DMV...take your pick. Problem is that it's not politically correct to discuss it.  The mid-70's film "Soylent Green" might provide some insight into what happens if overpopulation isn't addressed in some way. 

 

Been hearing that meme since the 70's. You must be a fan of Ehrlich.   Irrelevant to the topic. Start another thread on population. BTW, the planet doesn't have a problem. It will continue with or without us and whether the temperature rises 20 degrees or falls 20 degrees. Eventually, it will die a scorched husk... with or without us.

 

5)  Why do we have to wait for absolute proof?  Take a look at what has happened in the tobacco industry over the last 60 years. 

 

AGW is not tobacco. It is an unproven THEORY.  The big research money  (government) has a vested interest to promote AGW

 

6)  You don't get a "cleaner, more pleasant planet"??  Travel much?  Did you ever visit LA in the 1980's?  Since Calif initiated strict clean air policies around that time, the air quality of LA has improved dramatically.  Today, you can actually SEE the San Gabriel Mountains from Anaheim...every day.  That never happened 30 years ago.  I travel to China for work 3-4 times a year.  Until you've spent a week in Beijing and literally chewed on their atmosphere, you will never appreciate the benefits that environmental regulations have provided to the USA.   And you think it's a giant scheme to redistribute wealth?  We've been redistributing wealth for a century.  Why is it all of the sudden now a problem?  America collects taxes from you and me, then gives it away in the form of subsidies to giant corporations and foreign nations.  $$$ redistribution is nothing new.

 

Yep, travel plenty. Grew up in San Gabriel Valley. Clean air was not due to any AGW efforts. The air was getting cleaner when they were still warning of an ice age.  You are confusing two separate efforts. 

Redistribution has always been a problem. The scale of AGW redistribution makes it an even larger problem.

 

7)  From what esteemed scientific journal did you extract that stuff?  

 

I'll cite my sources if you'll cite yours. Then again, you still haven't answered ANY of my questions, and I've answered all of yours.

 

Additionally, not one person has posted a thoughtful  comment on the original post. Whatever. Btw, thanks for keeping me mildly busy while I was slow cooking some meat. Oh dear....now I'll have to figure out how much CO2 my pellet grill put out before I can enjoy some savory ribs guilt free. Who am I kidding, no I won't.

[apeman45]

Chris - if you think fracking was slowed down by the "progressives" then you are even more clueless than I thought.  Saudi Arabia controls the price of oil my friend.  They flooded the market with cheap oil with one of the objectives being to put the frackers out of business for a while and limit competition.  You do believe in a free market?  Supply and demand and boy do they have supply!

 

I am amazed that anyone can think that we have absolutely nothing to do with GW.  Thank God the majority of Americans and a large percentage of republicans believe in science and GW.  

 

I'm not late to the argument.  I just ignore the misinformation presented as fact most of the time and have and tire of the attacks and insults.  There are many many many more like me and who make up the silent majority.  Yup that's right - you guys make a lot of noise but are the loud minority - a lot like Raider fans.  Saying it louder and meaner doesn't make it true.  

 

 

“You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.” ― John Morley, On Compromise

[Chris]

Aces - I'm a tech toad and only care about data.  The political rants from either side (right AND left) have no influence on my thinking.  Of course politicians attempt to manipulate GW to their own advantage.  I ignore them.   So again, back to the data.  Science is true, even if you don't believe it.  The data show significant and rapid changes occurring in global climates.  These changes don't seem to be natural because they don't seem to  have occurred before.  GW is not a religion, it's a fact and it's going to be a rough ride.  The good news is both you and I will be long gone before things get really bad.

So far you are all talk and no data Mr. Grumpster.  Your position tells me that you select your data and are limiting your sources to the ones that support your political position only.  This is not true science and contradicts your above statement on your beliefs in data and science.  And there are a lot of sources out there that are bought and paid for by government and the eco fraud groups to feed you cherry picked, garbage data, manipulated data, incomplete data, and false theories.  You have to be smart enough to compare it with other sources and historical data to realize you are being lied to and to recognize the political agenda behind it all.   And these climate changes have happened countless times before..... Another piece of data, a fact, you seem to ignore.   And these changes will  happen again and again over the next 4 or 5 Billion more years on Earth when we are long gone as a species.  Again, think back to 1315 which you so conveniently ignored.....   No crops in 1316.....   Maybe the humans back then should have limited their carbon output too, all of 400 million people that existed on Earth back then.   Think hard here, a limited human population, no coal fired plants, no burning of fossil fuels, no SUV's, no industrial revolution yet.   How can you ignore facts like those....?   Climate change is real, always has been, always will be, but it has nothing to do with us.  We're not that big of a deal to the Earth.  Chris 

[Chris]

 

Chris - if you think fracking was slowed down by the "progressives" then you are even more clueless than I thought.  Saudi Arabia controls the price of oil my friend.  They flooded the market with cheap oil with one of the objectives being to put the frackers out of business for a while and limit competition.  You do believe in a free market?  Supply and demand and boy do they have supply!

 

Apester, that is a recent development and I am fully aware of it, so are my shares of KMI, XOM, and CVX....    The Saudi's are driving down the price of oil to cripple the frackers in the USA and to cripple Iran and the Russians bank accounts.  Obummer has killed coal and he and his lap dog EPA were trying to kill fracking  (oh, and Matt Damon too) until the Saudi's did it for him.  If you had read any of my posts over the last year or so you would have known that I know all of this stuff very well.  I've been called many things before but never "clueless".  But what really hurts my heart  is you compared me to a Raider fan......   That's gonna hurt for awhile...  Chris

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Joe - my reference to the current migration from the Middle East to Europe is simply to point out that any large migration, regardless of cause, is hugely problematic.  The idea that your mind immediately viewed my comment thru GW glasses is very telling and reveals your bias on the issue.  I actually laughed.  Hope you don't need a doctor appointment for your sore feet.

[Chris]

Joe - my reference to the current migration from the Middle East to Europe is simply to point out that any large migration, regardless of cause, is hugely problematic.  The idea that your mind immediately viewed my comment thru GW glasses is very telling and reveals your bias on the issue.  I actually laughed.  Hope you don't need a doctor appointment for your sore feet.

Hey Grumpster, no facts from you yet, just opinion.  Are you caring so much for that "data" that you don't want to share it....?   Maybe Al Gore and Matt Damon are too busy to return your phone calls for help....?    Christmas is a busy time of the year.....and cold too....!   Chris

[The Average Joe]

“You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.” ― John Morley, On Compromise

 

Thank you for bolstering my argument. Who is silencing the AGW promoters? No one. Who is being silenced by academic extortion, appeals to Congress, banishment from publication?  I'll tell you.  Anyone who has the audacity to be critical of heavily massaged datasets. Anyone who dares question why the models are nearly 100% wrong. Anyone who has done the barest of research. Anyone questioning why "scientists" refuse to release their raw data and formulas for "adjustments" so they can be vetted by the scientific community

 

 

 

Joe - my reference to the current migration from the Middle East to Europe is simply to point out that any large migration, regardless of cause, is hugely problematic.  The idea that your mind immediately viewed my comment thru GW glasses is very telling and reveals your bias on the issue.  I actually laughed.  Hope you don't need a doctor appointment for your sore feet.

 

Ummm, that was the topic of discussion, so yeah, my mind thought you were trying to make a point. I'm sorry I didn't realize you were going to segue to a completely different topic. Glad I could provide a laugh to a grumpy old guy. I aim to please. I have no idea what my feet have to do with anything, I guess from walking on eggshells around fragile belief systems?

 

And yet, still no answers to the most basic of questions I have asked. Questions that are required to be answered before ANY discussion on whether climate change is good or bad....

I'm going to add another one whose answer will be telling.

IF there was absolute proof that the world was cooling towards another ice age (which WILL happen at some point), would you support intense boosting of CO2 producing to attempt to slow the cooling?

[GrumpyOldGuy]

your mind isn't as quick as I first thought.  You get sore feet from jumping to conclusions.  In the future, I will refrain from using oblique euphemisms.  Sorry about that... 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Chris - the Keeling Curve raw data is here - https://scripps.ucsd...ms/keelingcurve    You can download it and plot out the graph from Excel.  If you do a Fourier transform on the data and plot that out, you get a completely different picture.  It reveals that the rate of change is substantially higher now than any time in history.  In other words, the concentration of CO2 is increasing faster now than at any time in the last 800,000 years.  It's a disturbing result, and of great concern to the climate crowd.

[apeman45]

What we have here is a severe case of cognitive dissonance.  It gets very uncomfortable having overwhelming evidence slapping you in the face on a daily basis and killing your lawn.  All this confusion leads to confirmation bias to deal with the tension of being wrong.  Ultimately all that is left is to turn to motivated reasoning which lets your emotions make your decisions for you so you can cling to your false beliefs while ignoring facts.  When you are challenged and feel that inner turmoil swelling up inside lash out at others with a barrage of insults and misinformation.  You know - Like Donald Trump.  It will seem like people are listening but they are not.  They probably are just hoping if they nod their head you will go away.  Really all The Donald is doing is selling books.  What are you guys selling?  A false belief.  If it's on the internet it's true right?

 

Keep getting your message out there to all 14 people on the Folsom Forum if it will help your mental state.  We wouldn't want to interfere with your ability to buy a gun or get a concealed weapons permit.  See what i did there?  A little misdirection.

[2 Aces]

Saying it louder and meaner doesn't make it true.

You are correct. Glad you have *seen the light*.

It's easy to provide the science that disproves the myth of GW, but even then you're NEVER going to convince the GW cultists that their dopey GW fears are not realistic and based on falsified, exaggerated, and manipulated data. They will still insist that the sky is falling.

They are similar to children and their unrealistic fear of the dark, fear of that monster under their bed, or the fear of that elusive *boogeyman*.

Talking to the GW Kool-Aid drinkers is pointless.

When people have been brainwashed (and the Left is very effective at brainwashing people) you just can't bring them back to reality without some kind of professional and pharmaceutical help.

[Chris]

Chris - the Keeling Curve raw data is here - https://scripps.ucsd...ms/keelingcurve    You can download it and plot out the graph from Excel.  If you do a Fourier transform on the data and plot that out, you get a completely different picture.  It reveals that the rate of change is substantially higher now than any time in history.  In other words, the concentration of CO2 is increasing faster now than at any time in the last 800,000 years.  It's a disturbing result, and of great concern to the climate crowd.

Scripps, cool place, been there down in San Diego.  Yes, I remember, any ppm of CO2 over 400 then we are done....!  That was the story.  In times past CO2 was like at 4000 ppm and greater and the Earth and life survived, except for those pesky dinosaurs but that is another story, asteroids, comets and stuff like that (here's where being a Geologist comes in handy).  Anyway, what is wrong with CO2...?   The AGW cultists have fixated on CO2, so many other gasses out there that influence climate and weather possibly and then you have the Sun cycles which guys like you completely ignore.  In my opinion the Sun is responsible for 100% of our weather.  We don't make any difference at all, none at all. You seem pretty fond of your Keeling Curve and doing a Fourier math exercise for some reason, mentioned them twice.  Is this all you got...?  And look at your link, Sripps, UCSD, where do they get their money...?   Government funding.  Can you imagine being against the theory of AGW and getting funding from government (California, the Feds) to try to prove your theory...?  Not a chance...!  In fact you would have never been hired at all or received tenure if you questioned at all the AGW theory.  CO2 is your friend.  I celebrate CO2 every time I crack a Sierra Nevada....!  Wonderful stuff....!   Chris

 

[2 Aces]

And look at your link, Sripps, UCSD, where do they get their money...?   Government funding.  Can you imagine being against the theory of AGW and getting funding from government (California, the Feds) to try to prove your theory...?  Not a chance...!  In fact you would have never been hired at all or received tenure if you questioned at all the AGW theory.

You are correct...vast sums of $$$ are at the core of the fraudulent AGW scam. It's all about the corrupt Gravy Train of cash...nothing more, nothing less..

http://hotair.com/ar...-false-science/

[apeman45]

You guys are responsible for a lot of the GW gasses with all that hot air!  All I hear is a bunch of regurgitated talking points, cliches and insults.  At least Joe backs up his opinions.  

 

"We make no difference at all"  Why do we even process our sewage or have catalytic converters on cars?  Was the whole fluorocarbon / ozone thing a hoax?  I wrote a report in high school 40 years ago about the ozone layer being depleted using research from the library.  All this time I thought books, scientific journals and the California UC system were pretty reliable sources.  Thanks for pointing out to me that government funding is linked to education so it is all a hoax and unreliable liberal propaganda.  Now with talk radio and the internet real science is no longer needed.  I guess the Taliban is on the right track.  Limiting education helps get your point of view across.  Get out the burqas!