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#16 Who_Do_You_Trust

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 05:18 PM

Nothing creative about it. Although this graph may not show the lag due to the scale, Each of those grid cells is 10k years, (not 2500 as you claim) so seeing a 1/12 of a grid cell lead is tough for old tech writer eyes.  However, it is pretty well known that CO2 does indeed lag behind temperature by 800 years (give or take). Ice cores confirm this (the only real proxy we have for data going back that far)  A very likely cause for this could be that as ocean temps warm, their capacity for  absorbing CO2 diminishes.

As for the graph, how would you position it? You could make the co2 scale go from  100 to 600 to make co2 change seem smaller OR you could do what they did and use the scale that fits the measurements for both temp and co2. Sorry, your claim is invalid

Oh, and I do not make the claims, scientists do:

 

Petit et al. (1999) reconstructed histories of surface air temperature and atmospheric CO2 concentration from data obtained from a Vostok ice core that covered the prior 420,000 years, determining that during glacial inception "the CO2 decrease lags the temperature decrease by several thousand years" and that "the same sequence of climate forcing operated during each termination."  Likewise, working with sections of ice core records from around the times of the last three glacial terminations, Fischer et al. (1999) found that "the time lag of the rise in CO2 concentrations with respect to temperature change is on the order of 400 to 1000 years during all three glacial-interglacial transitions."

On the basis of atmospheric CO2 data obtained from the Antarctic Taylor Dome ice core and temperature data obtained from the Vostok ice core, Indermuhle et al. (2000) studied the relationship between these two parameters over the period 60,000-20,000 years BP (Before Present).  One statistical test performed on the data suggested that shifts in the air's CO2 content lagged shifts in air temperature by approximately 900 years, while a second statistical test yielded a mean lag-time of 1200 years.  Similarly, in a study of air temperature and CO2 data obtained from Dome Concordia, Antarctica for the period 22,000-9,000 BP -- which time interval includes the most recent glacial-to-interglacial transition -- Monnin et al. (2001) found that the start of the CO2 increase lagged the start of the temperature increase by 800 years.  Then, in another study of the 420,000-year Vostok ice-core record, Mudelsee (2001) concluded that variations in atmospheric CO2 concentration lagged variations in air temperature by 1,300 to 5,000 years.

In a somewhat different type of study, Yokoyama et al. (2000) analyzed sediment facies in the tectonically stable Bonaparte Gulf of Australia to determine the timing of the initial melting phase of the last great ice age.  In commenting on the results of that study, Clark and Mix (2000) note that the rapid rise in sea level caused by the melting of land-based ice that began approximately 19,000 years ago preceded the post-glacial rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration by about 3,000 years.

So what's the latest on the issue?  To our knowledge, the most recent study to broach the subject is that of Caillon et al. (2003), who measured the isotopic composition of argon -- specifically, ð40Ar, which they argue "can be taken as a climate proxy, thus providing constraints about the timing of CO2 and climate change" -- in air bubbles in the Vostok ice core over the period that comprises what is called Glacial Termination III, which occurred about 240,000 years BP. The results of their tedious but meticulous analysis led them to ultimately conclude that "the CO2 increase lagged Antarctic deglacial warming by 800 ± 200 years."

 

<Mic drop>

 

Like most sides on this debate, you seem to be cherry-picking the data to support your beliefs.  And most of the data you've cited is relatively worthless because it is a measure of air temperature, not sea temperature.  I wrote an article last winter about the effects of climate change on the ski industry.  I learned that air temperature based studies really don't tell you much.  Since the preponderance of thermal energy on the planet is stored in the oceans, meaningful data should be gleaned from sea water and land mass temperatures, which it almost never is.  I'm certain there are reputable sources of data that directly negate everything you've cited.  So eventually, this becomes a contest of who cherry picks the best.  Total waste of time.  

 

One other point may be worth mentioning.  I recall some time ago that you railed at the amount of $$$ being spent to "combat" climate change and how it's being misused.  For millennia, mankind has spent resources in an effort to alter geophysical phenomena to the benefit of humans.  Ancients would erect aqueducts (at great expense) to bring water to naturally non-arable land to grow crops.  In the mid 20th century, NCAR  tried to artificially increase rainfall by seeding clouds with silver iodide powders.  For centuries, humans have built dams to control water runoff to prevent flooding.  

 

Are you suggesting that these have all been mistakes?  Should all the flood control dams in the world be taken out and we should just let the climate do it's thing?  It seems to be your approach with global warming.  

 

The efforts to alter climates to benefit mankind are nothing new.   We've been doing this stuff for a long time.  Why stop now?     



#17 2 Aces

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 05:26 PM

Hey dopey, many top climatologists and meteorologists are now stepping forward to dispute "man-made climate change". The fact that you are afraid to admit this tells me that you have lost the argument. But carry on with your BS, if that's how you get your jollies. :)

#18 SCA

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 05:47 PM

I'm not smart enough to get into the details about climate change (and I'll probably regret chiming in on this thread) but I am a pragmatist. Do you really think seven billion people can inhabit the earth without some adverse effects?

#19 2 Aces

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 06:33 PM

What adverse effects? Let's get specific.

#20 The Average Joe

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 06:48 PM

I offer specific studies and theories, and all I get is "I'm sure there is stuff to refute that?" How incredibly weak and dismissive. Tell me oh wizard, how EXACTLY are we going to get sea temperature data for 400,000 years?  Air temperature is DRIVEN by sea temperature, so the ice cores offer a pretty good proxy.

 

SCA. No one is saying there is NO impact. What I am saying is that there is ZERO direct evidence for CO2 to be the primary driver of global climate, and plenty of evidence to refute that. As for "adverse" impact. Sure, we manipulate our environment. Do rats have an adverse effect on their ecosystem? Do mosquitoes?  How about invasive plants like Kudzu? Or locally, how about bark beetles?

 

Who-do, You mix apples and oranges. I am against WASTING money. Dams are a win-win-win. Flood control green energy, water storage and recreation. AGW money is spent on phantom problems whether they be  "reparations" to third world countries, power subsidies which result in increased costs to consumers which hurts the poor the most , unreliable grids (ask S Australia how green energy is working) and 27 dollar a gallon biofuel for the navy.  There is near zero net benefit to mankind to be gained by getting rid of cheap, reliable energy.  Apples-oranges.


"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive" -- C.S. Lewis

 

If the only way to combat "global warming" was to lower taxes, we would never hear of the issue again. - Anonymous

 

"Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one" — Thomas Paine, 𝘊𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘰𝘯 𝘚𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦 (1776)

 


#21 Who_Do_You_Trust

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 03:06 PM

I'm not smart enough to get into the details about climate change (and I'll probably regret chiming in on this thread) but I am a pragmatist. Do you really think seven billion people can inhabit the earth without some adverse effects?

 

SCA - an insightful comment.  If you stand back and take a good look, the vast majority of problems the world faces can be traced directly or indirectly to over-population.  Pick any problem:

 

-  Epidemics and pandemics result from too many people living in close proximity with too few medical resources

-  Lack of fresh potable water.  Drinking water is an extremely precious commodity many places in the world.  And the resource is pretty much fixed.  It can't expand with population increase.

-  Depletion of natural resources.  Human consumption had far outstripped available resources. Each person on Earth now requires a third more land to supply his or her needs than the planet can supply.

-  Immigration problems result from too many people living in crappy places trying to get into nice places.

-  Mass migrations due to insufficient food resources, war and local turmoil, sea level rise, etc.

-  Housing crisis in Calif due to too many people pursuing too few housing resources.

-  Dramatic wildlife population declines due to loss of habitat, over-hunting, over-fishing.  It's estimated total global wildlife population has declined by 40% in the last 75 years.

-  Unsustainable agricultural practices will lead to substantial food shortages in certain places around the world.

-  As human overpopulation drives resources and basic necessities, such as food and water to become scarcer, there will be increased competitiveness for these resources which leads to elevated crime rates.  Venezuela is a good example.

-  And because of the increased crime, governments will apply more restrictions to their citizens, which translates to less freedom.

-  And it gets more personal.  Freeway too crowded?  Can't get reservations at your favorite restaurant?  The beach at your favorite get-away resort is packed?  It because of too many people.

 

And if you want to get real depressed, read a 1966 novel titled "Soylent Green", and you will see how populations solved their food shortage problems in a very draconian way.



#22 2 Aces

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 03:17 PM

Yeah, sky is falling. If people choose to live in a densely populated area, that's their choice. Plenty of choices out there. But carry on with your doom and gloom. The rest of us won't be hiding under our bed. Your posts are predictable and boring. Same ol same ol.

#23 Who_Do_You_Trust

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 03:30 PM

I offer specific studies and theories, and all I get is "I'm sure there is stuff to refute that?" How incredibly weak and dismissive. Tell me oh wizard, how EXACTLY are we going to get sea temperature data for 400,000 years?  Air temperature is DRIVEN by sea temperature, so the ice cores offer a pretty good proxy.

 

SCA. No one is saying there is NO impact. What I am saying is that there is ZERO direct evidence for CO2 to be the primary driver of global climate, and plenty of evidence to refute that. As for "adverse" impact. Sure, we manipulate our environment. Do rats have an adverse effect on their ecosystem? Do mosquitoes?  How about invasive plants like Kudzu? Or locally, how about bark beetles?

 

Who-do, You mix apples and oranges. I am against WASTING money. Dams are a win-win-win. Flood control green energy, water storage and recreation. AGW money is spent on phantom problems whether they be  "reparations" to third world countries, power subsidies which result in increased costs to consumers which hurts the poor the most , unreliable grids (ask S Australia how green energy is working) and 27 dollar a gallon biofuel for the navy.  There is near zero net benefit to mankind to be gained by getting rid of cheap, reliable energy.  Apples-oranges.

 

Joe - you say air temperature is driven by ocean temperature.  since you like data so much, where's the data that says that?  There is no doubt in my mind that I can go cherry-pick data that contradicts your cherry-picked data.  As stated before, a total waste of both our time.

 

You've claimed that all the data is manipulated, but then use it to support your argument.   huh??

 

You say dams are a win-win-win.  How about wind turbines?  They create jobs (wind turbine techician is the fastest growing job in the nation).  They consume no natural resources to generate power.  When the investment is paid for, wind turbine power is nearly FREE.  Win-win-win?  You decide.  

 

Then you suggest that we should go ask Australia about their green energy.  Of course it's going to have problems and challenges.  It's NEW!  You don't think the technology will improve?  Then you don't understand how technology works.  What you suggest is akin to telling the Wright Bros to give up on their airplane experiment because what they've produced isn't as reliable as a modern commercial aircraft.  

 

If advancing technology scares you, then get out of the way.  It's going to advance whether you like it or not.   



#24 2 Aces

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 03:35 PM

Wind turbines kill many millions of birds every year... many of them endangered. Nice "green" idea by you *climate clowns*. Everything you people do backfires. You never learn.



#25 UncleVinnys

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 04:35 PM

Good one, Who!
 

I want to put this in perspective.
In the decades before the year 2000, business executives in the tobacco industry claimed there was no link between smoking and cancer.

 

They had a vested interest, as they were making a fortune on cigarette sales.

 

The crime of this cover-up cost the lives of several million people.

The same is happening now with climate change.
Those who make profit from polluting, such as the Koch brothers, issue false "science" claiming no connection with global warming.

 

Only this time, climate change will affect billions of people on the planet.
In some sense, it's a crime against humanity and the planet to push the idea that

ever-increasing CO2 levels from fossil fuels has no effect.

 

Just wondering what kind of karma these barons of industry must endure to compensate for the destruction we all face.


1 God: 1 World: 1 People     :peaceman: 


#26 2 Aces

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 05:59 PM

If you can't cite sources, then you are lying. You climate change dopes should quit smoking the dope. You keep chasing your tail, but you never catch it. You're emotionally invested in the lie of climate change... you're not intellectually invested. Yes, I just insulted you, but people like you deserve it.

#27 Chris

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:31 PM

Good one, Who!
 

I want to put this in perspective.
In the decades before the year 2000, business executives in the tobacco industry claimed there was no link between smoking and cancer.

 

They had a vested interest, as they were making a fortune on cigarette sales.

 

The crime of this cover-up cost the lives of several million people.

The same is happening now with climate change.
Those who make profit from polluting, such as the Koch brothers, issue false "science" claiming no connection with global warming.

 

Only this time, climate change will affect billions of people on the planet.
In some sense, it's a crime against humanity and the planet to push the idea that

ever-increasing CO2 levels from fossil fuels has no effect.

 

Just wondering what kind of karma these barons of industry must endure to compensate for the destruction we all face.

Yes, and Hillary was so honest and not corrupt and never broke any laws......    And Bernie, God bless him but he was clueless regarding economics ( and I voted for him, as a registered democrat believe it or not).   And CO2, not your problem Tio Vinny, actually we are very lacking in CO2 now historically.............     Anyway, liberals, progressives, communists, socialist have killed way more many people on this planet in the last 200 years, just ask Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, Bolivar, Che, Castro, etc.............   Chris

 

Know your history and no one can tell you otherwise...........   Sorry MSM, liberal, progressive MSM.........   I am too smart for you, and in spades.......    


1A - 2A = -1A


#28 2 Aces

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 07:12 AM

Chris, of course they believe in "man-made climate change"... they're *emotionally invested* in it, NOT *intellectually invested*. If they were intellectually invested, they would be skeptical after rationally reviewing the science and the *lack* of MMCC evidence. But emotion prevents them from being rational or reasonable. That is the main problem with the Left these days.

 

The climate change lie/scam is all about money and blind ideology, as there is no proof whatsoever that man can alter global weather and weather patterns. The fact that their emotion prevents them from grasping the basic science is disturbing. How many other basic truths in their life do they deny? And they're adults, right? Weird. In summary, the *science/data* that the *believers* cite is fraudulent, and they know it!

 

8097867f674d9d10f0736fccb3477e05.jpg



#29 The Average Joe

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 09:09 AM

Biggest, most powerful storm ever!!  Er, not so much (not that it isn't horrible for those affected)  Hyperbole much news media?  But of storms tied for 7th in the last 150 years, IT WAS THE STRONGEST EVER! 

 

irma-table-landfall.jpg


"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive" -- C.S. Lewis

 

If the only way to combat "global warming" was to lower taxes, we would never hear of the issue again. - Anonymous

 

"Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one" — Thomas Paine, 𝘊𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘰𝘯 𝘚𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦 (1776)

 


#30 Who_Do_You_Trust

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 05:58 PM

Biggest, most powerful storm ever!!  Er, not so much (not that it isn't horrible for those affected)  Hyperbole much news media?  But of storms tied for 7th in the last 150 years, IT WAS THE STRONGEST EVER! 

 

 

 

Probably doesn't matter to the guy in Key West whose home is now just a concrete foundation under two feet of sea water.  Of course, many in Calif have a simple solution to it all - "Don't live there"  







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