379 replies to this topic

[cw68]

Hey now, doesn't it disturb you a little that you're arguing against me and for Chad?

It has to happen once in a while, if only to prove us free thinkers are just that...

I don't need proof that arenas can help to revitalize areas. I know they do. The thing I want to see 1)has it been done privately sucessfully (YES) and in 2)areas where they're heavily subsidized, is the real subsidy amount documented and do the pundits and the people still fell ok or do they feel a little raped while enjoying their vibrant community with the perfect quotent of Starbucks, Borders and sports team memorabilia stores

Usually the bridge jumpers and those that follow are the ones who are taking 'leaps of faith' without all the facts. The cautious ones are the nerds with the calculators assessing risk vs reward. (me and Robert)

How can you say we're afraid of change yet say we're bridge jumpers???

Trust me, I haven't missed the irony of that!

[Chad Vander Veen]

Hey now, doesn't it disturb you a little that you're arguing against me and for Chad?

It has to happen once in a while, if only to prove us free thinkers are just that...

WTF is that supposed to mean?

Usually the bridge jumpers and those that follow are the ones who are taking 'leaps of faith' without all the facts. The cautious ones are the nerds with the calculators assessing risk vs reward. (me and Robert)

How can you say we're afraid of change yet say we're bridge jumpers???

No, bridge jumpers are lemmings who don't have a mind of their own, just doing what they've always done.

[benning]

ah come on now Chad the bridge jumpers only make the mistake ONCE by definition so how can they be doing what they've always done.

I still can't see how posing legitimate questions and questioning policy that is not in the public interest is in any way lemming-like. but whatever...

WTF is that supposed to mean?

Just that you're typically conservative and she's typically liberal.

[Robert Giacometti]

Hey now, doesn't it disturb you a little that you're arguing against me and for Chad?

It has to happen once in a while, if only to prove us free thinkers are just that...

I don't need proof that arenas can help to revitalize areas. I know they do. The thing I want to see 1)has it been done privately sucessfully (YES) and in 2)areas where they're heavily subsidized, is the real subsidy amount documented and do the pundits and the people still fell ok or do they feel a little raped while enjoying their vibrant community with the perfect quotent of Starbucks, Borders and sports team memorabilia stores

Usually the bridge jumpers and those that follow are the ones who are taking 'leaps of faith' without all the facts. The cautious ones are the nerds with the calculators assessing risk vs reward. (me and Robert)

How can you say we're afraid of change yet say we're bridge jumpers???

Wow, what a day getting called Suzy and now a nerd! I'm almost wishing for the days when Kerri was calling me evil!

[mylo]

So, uh, want it or not, who thinks it's going to pass with 50% vote? 2/3rds?

[DrKoz23]

So, uh, want it or not, who thinks it's going to pass with 50% vote? 2/3rds?

There isn't a snowballs chance in heck!

[Chad Vander Veen]

Land deals could offset arena cost, analysis says
By Terri Hardy and Mary Lynne Vellinga -- Bee Staff Writers
http://www.sacbee.co...-15136324c.html
Published 12:01 am PDT Friday, August 11, 2006

If a new downtown sports complex is constructed and land surrounding Arco Arena developed, local government would collect more than $542 million over 30 years in taxes and other revenue -- money that would substantially cover the new arena's price tag, a city analysis shows.

[Revolutionist]

Land deals could offset arena cost, analysis says
By Terri Hardy and Mary Lynne Vellinga -- Bee Staff Writers
http://www.sacbee.co...-15136324c.html
Published 12:01 am PDT Friday, August 11, 2006

If a new downtown sports complex is constructed and land surrounding Arco Arena developed, local government would collect more than $542 million over 30 years in taxes and other revenue -- money that would substantially cover the new arena's price tag, a city analysis shows.

Since it's worth posting twice it seems, its worth twice the response

Good, then let the City of Sacramento issue $542M in muni-bonds, build the stadium, and be happy.
Looks like you and I just came up with the way to make the deal happen Cv... time to march on Sac City Hall.

Very few people are against building a stadium downtown. But many are against the proposed financing plan, which is a) inappropriate due to the cost/benefit for the rest of the county and b) on the edge of legality which WILL BE challenged in court. This new plan fixes all that.

[Robert Giacometti]

Land deals could offset arena cost, analysis says
By Terri Hardy and Mary Lynne Vellinga -- Bee Staff Writers
http://www.sacbee.co...-15136324c.html
Published 12:01 am PDT Friday, August 11, 2006

If a new downtown sports complex is constructed and land surrounding Arco Arena developed, local government would collect more than $542 million over 30 years in taxes and other revenue -- money that would substantially cover the new arena's price tag, a city analysis shows.

Cv,

If Sacto can raise these funds to cover the cost of an Arena, why are they wanting to raise my taxes in Folsom to build something they can pay for on their own and will generate tax dollars for them....... not us in Folsom?

I enjoy a public discussion/debate on these issues. I believe its healthy and brings about a better community in the long run. I appreciate your participation on this.......but typically I'm confused. I'm against raising sales taxes countywide to build this Arena downtown and feel we gave away way too much to the Maloofs on this deal. Its my belief that you feel this is a good deal and is the only way to get the Arena built. Yet, you continue to bring forward examples that basically support what I'm saying and contradict what you are claiming....Kansas City ( paid for jointly private and public through taxes on rental cars/hotels) and now the Sacto analysis that claims they can pay for this with the development of the Arco land.

What are you trying to accomplish by continually giving me more information/ examples that there are other ways to build this Arena by NOT raising sales taxes?

[Chad Vander Veen]

Since it's worth posting twice it seems, its worth twice the response

Good, then let the City of Sacramento issue $542M in muni-bonds, build the stadium, and be happy.
Looks like you and I just came up with the way to make the deal happen Cv... time to march on Sac City Hall.

Very few people are against building a stadium downtown. But many are against the proposed financing plan, which is a) inappropriate due to the cost/benefit for the rest of the county and b) on the edge of legality which WILL BE challenged in court. This new plan fixes all that.

Pfft, yeah right. You'd be just as opposed, if not more so, to voting yes on bonds to fund an arena.

[BuffaloRon]

There was too much left on the table...and the city didn't get their cut.

[/quote]

[Revolutionist]

Pfft, yeah right. You'd be just as opposed, if not more so, to voting yes on bonds to fund an arena.

Wow, you have such incredible insights into my mind! I am astounded at myself when you reveal to me what I think.

I am in no manner opposed to building an arena downtown. For clarity, let me sum up:

1- Arena downtown = great
2- City of Sacramento investing in its future = great
3- Muni-bonds, local taxes (appropriately presented and affirmed by the voters), special districts, TOTs, ticket surcharges, or a myriad of other options/plans, private and public = great

4- Taxing the population of an entire region for a local benefit - and at twice the price = not great.

So... tell me which of the planks in this platform lead you to deduce that I am against Sacramento issuing bonds to finance an arena?

For a second there I thought we found something we could agree on and run with

edit: edited for tone.. originally came off a little harsh

[jafount]

I wish I had your ability to know the motives of others and judge them without ever having the opportunity of meeting.

Let me see if I understand. You want the poor of my county to have their taxes raised to pay for an Arena, that they probably can NOT afford to use, so You can take your children to events yet, YOU don't live in the county where the taxes are being raised, therefore you don't have to pay for the Arena. Then you are calling those opposed to the tax plan short sighted and selfish, because they aren't willing to pay for something for you to use without you paying for it. Is this correct?

If you are really curious to how many people regularly work/help/donate at the Twin Lakes Food Bank or the Powerhouse Shelter....there is one sure way to find out for yourself!

Don't worry about being embarrassed....those who have a compassion for the poor and less fortunate also are very foregiving of the foolish.

Compassion for the poor? You can't be serious?!?! Sitting in an ivory tower talking about "compassion" for the poor means nothing. Feel free to respond to me once you move a homeless person into your home.

By the way, just how much will this tax affect the cost of groceries all you people keep talking about? Oh yeah...it won't. Food isn't taxable. Even if it were, just imagine the look of joy on a persons face when they are finally able to spring for that gumball on their way out of the grocery store because they didn't have to pay the extra 25 cents in tax on their 100.00 grocery bill! Gosh...maybe they can even tell their poor friends how great of a day they had as they sit in front of their home smoking and drinking beer...

I choose not to LIVE in YOUR county, but I DO SHOP in your county. Therefore I get to pay MY fair share for MY arena use.

[mylo]

Compassion for the poor? You can't be serious?!?! Sitting in an ivory tower talking about "compassion" for the poor means nothing. Feel free to respond to me once you move a homeless person into your home.

I tried that once. He robbed me. Am I no longer compassionate?

[Robert Giacometti]

Compassion for the poor? You can't be serious?!?! Sitting in an ivory tower talking about "compassion" for the poor means nothing. Feel free to respond to me once you move a homeless person into your home.

By the way, just how much will this tax affect the cost of groceries all you people keep talking about? Oh yeah...it won't. Food isn't taxable. Even if it were, just imagine the look of joy on a persons face when they are finally able to spring for that gumball on their way out of the grocery store because they didn't have to pay the extra 25 cents in tax on their 100.00 grocery bill! Gosh...maybe they can even tell their poor friends how great of a day they had as they sit in front of their home smoking and drinking beer...

I choose not to LIVE in YOUR county, but I DO SHOP in your county. Therefore I get to pay MY fair share for MY arena use.

In your previous post you asked How many of us who were saying this was unfair to the poor....actually were working at a soup kitchen or something to that effect. I invited you down to look for yourself and you could then find out first hand.

Now it seems your standard has changed....to the only way you feel someone has compassion for the poor is to invite a homeless person in to live with them. Is it fair to assume you then don't have any compassion for the poor....because you haven't met your own standards?

I assumed many people like yourself who live outside Sacramento County spend some of their money in Sacramento County. I'd suspect its probably NOT as much as those who live in Sacramento County....but the difference really wouldn't be significant....but those of us in Sac County will pay more of the Tax than you will. Those who live outside Sac County and rarely spend money in Sac County who attend Kings games and events at the new Arena....wouldn't be paying for the new Arena, yet get the benefits!

Its morally wrong to force people to pay a tax to build something they can NOT afford to attend. If you want others to pay a tax to build something they can't afford to attend , so you and your children can attend....that is a reflection on your values NOT mine.

If you want to justify your support for this measure....by rationalizing my beliefs as being inconsistent....so you can twist your own values....I would encourage you to do so.