537 replies to this topic

[crossski]

No, but 9/11 DID happen, so of what relevance is it to hypothesize that it did not?? 

My experience has been one of at first, believing that the terrorist threat was just a few nut-cases (i.e., the 9/11 hijackers), to doing more and more reading and realizing that this is a real threat, and more extensive than many of us at first believed. 

It doesn't help one's peace of mind when every few weeks, there is a new revelation about a terrorist cell in some nondescript town in America... when with similar frequency, I read opinion pieces by noted Muslims stating that too many Muslims are ambivalent (at best) about terrorism... when two Intel workers get arrested and confess to terrorist conspiracy. 

This is an easy issue if you are willing to put your head in the sand; not easy if you are not.

good points being made here. fyi I saw the city council meeting rebroadcast tonite from 8/23 tue meeting. It had some info on there about this mosque. No
loudspeakers will be allowed or approved. Additonally fox40news did a story that nite on its presence in folsom. I believe that the mosque should be put on hold till we see what we are dealing with here. Remember the 19 hijackers were the 'people'next door and told to 'assmimilate'. This is a fact.

[bordercolliefan]

Let me see-
Most of the Muslims now attending services in Folsom are middle to upper middle class
Most of the Muslims now attending services in Folsom are hard working families interested in their homes, neighborhoods, Schools etc,.
Most of the Muslims now attending services in Folsom are Americans or want to be soon.
Most of the Muslims children now attending services in Folsom are at or above average students in all grade levels
Most of the Muslims now attending services in Folsom OWN their homes IN folsom and surrounding areas.
Most of the Mulims now attending services in Folsom have the lowest crime rate within the city and surrounding area.

Folsom500,

This is an impressive litany but unfortunately you have no proof of most of these assertions. "Most of the Muslim children now attending services in Folsom are at or above average students in all grade levels" -- come on, how could you possibly know that! More to the point, you have no proof that all of the people who will attend the mosque and school in Folsom are the same people who currently attend services here.

What your post emphasizes is how little we know about what this mosque really means for Folsom: you have one (optimistic) image in your mind, and I find myself somewhat more concerned (though not necessarily opposed to the mosque) based on my own experiences and reading.

Maybe if there was more information available, we'd all have a clearer idea of what to expect.

[Solartide]

i have nothing to contribute, but, 23 pages? wow! thats pretty 1337!

[CostcoLover]

No, but 9/11 DID happen, so of what relevance is it to hypothesize that it did not?? 

My experience has been one of at first, believing that the terrorist threat was just a few nut-cases (i.e., the 9/11 hijackers), to doing more and more reading and realizing that this is a real threat, and more extensive than many of us at first believed. 

It doesn't help one's peace of mind when every few weeks, there is a new revelation about a terrorist cell in some nondescript town in America... when with similar frequency, I read opinion pieces by noted Muslims stating that too many Muslims are ambivalent (at best) about terrorism... when two Intel workers get arrested and confess to terrorist conspiracy. 

This is an easy issue if you are willing to put your head in the sand; not easy if you are not.

BCF, I'm from NYC. I was there during the chaos of 9/11. I'm well aware that it's more than just a few hijackers, and I assure you my head is not in the sand on this issue. Perhaps if you'd been there you would have seen Muslims running in fear just like everyone else, crying, looking for their loved ones, asking why? etc.

The hypothetical helps me frame your position and determine whether the basis is fear of terrorism or just racism. Others may have objected even in the absence of any terrorist activity.

So now that we've determined that it's fear of terrorism, let me ask you. What exactly do you envision if the mosque is built? Do you think terrorists will dominate the mosque and start blowing up places in Folsom? What's your worst nightmare?

Let me tell you what I envision (worst case scenario).

- 98% of the people attending will just be worshippers (some, even many of which may not agree with the 'American' way of life, but unlikely to do anything about it - much like all the talk on these boards)

- 2% may be trouble (may even be your worst nightmare - full fledged terrorists plotting their attacks).

That's the 2% we need to focus on and stop. We shouldn't be going around blaming the other 98%.

Just exactly how many of the 1.3B Muslims in the world do you think consists of terrorists? Would you have locked up all American Japanese in this country during WWII?

Don't forget, they're Americans too and have all the same rights to worship that you and I do.

[bordercolliefan]

So now that we've determined that it's fear of terrorism, let me ask you.  What exactly do you envision if the mosque is built?  Do you think terrorists will dominate the mosque and start blowing up places in Folsom?  What's your worst nightmare?

Let me tell you what I envision (worst case scenario).

-  98% of the people attending will just be worshippers (some, even many of which may not agree with the 'American' way of life, but unlikely to do anything about it - much like all the talk on these boards)

-  2% may be trouble (may even be your worst nightmare - full fledged terrorists plotting their attacks). 

That's the 2% we need to focus on and stop.  We shouldn't be going around blaming the other 98%. 

You make good points, and I agree with you. I have never advocated "stopping" Muslims from worshipping. That would be un-American. The City Council probably made the right decision in permitting a mosque to be built in Folsom. --Whether the City Council was correct in permitting a project of that size, that design, and with an elementary school attached is a different matter; I think those of us who deal with the Blue Ravine/Sibley traffic will likely come to regret the decision.

As for my worst nightmare... ok, my worst personal nightmare is that there would be a terrorist act involving our elementary school. --Of course you are right: only 1% or perhaps less of American Muslims are sympathetic to terrorism. Similarly, less than 1% of people are pedophiles. That doesn't stop parents from having horrible fears about what could happen to their children, and taking every action to protect them.

I think this brings us to a recurring theme in society: how we think about the actions of a group when dealing with individuals. It is indisputable that we can pick out certain groups that have higher rates of crime, terrorism, or whatever. Most of us, when we meet individuals in these groups, find them to be nice, kind, gentle, etc. (This is the point made by LexHillsMom, and she is right). Yet, when confronting the notion of the group as a whole (who are anonymous to us), then our fears about the group tend to come to the forefront. That is why you have phenomena such as "white flight." Many of us know people of color whom we admire and are glad to call our friends -- yet how many of us would be part of that "white flight" if faced with the same circumstances? If we are honest, the answer is probably most of us.

I hope you know me well enough by now to know that I am not a hater. Quite the opposite: some have accused me of liking nearly everyone I meet, and even being somewhat naive. I believe in this forum as a place where we can address our honest dilemmas, fears, and the greater issues of our society such as, in this case, the rights of individuals versus the safety of the majority. I have learned much from this discussion and appreciate your comments.

[CostcoLover]

As for my worst nightmare... ok, my worst personal nightmare is that there would be a terrorist act involving our elementary school.  --Of course you are right:  only 1% or perhaps less of American Muslims are sympathetic to terrorism.  Similarly, less than 1% of people are pedophiles.  That doesn't stop parents from having horrible fears about what could happen to their children, and taking every action to protect them. 

I think this brings us to a recurring theme in society:  how we think about the actions of a group when dealing with individuals.  It is indisputable that we can pick out certain groups that have higher rates of crime, terrorism, or whatever.  Most of us, when we meet individuals in these groups, find them to be nice, kind, gentle, etc.  (This is the point made by LexHillsMom, and she is right).  Yet, when confronting the notion of the group as a whole (who are anonymous to us), then our fears about the group tend to come to the forefront.  That is why you have phenomena such as "white flight."  Many of us know people of color whom we admire and are glad to call our friends -- yet how many of us would be part of that "white flight" if faced with the same circumstances?  If we are honest, the answer is probably most of us.

Seeing your reply, leads me to think that another factor is at play in this discussion. That is, you and I must have different perceptions of fear and thresholds. For I believe that the number of Muslim terrorists and terrorist sympathizers is greater than 1% (in this country alone), and yet, do not have the same fears you've expressed.

My perception is that there are probably more unknown child molestors in Sacramento than terrorists or terrorist sympathizers.

You have to wonder if any locale should be allowed to grow, in a town of 100 or 1,000 we would know just about everyone and any criminal behavior is very likely to result in apprehension with such a small town. We also know that as a town grows to become a city there's more anonymity and a growing increase in crime that's somewhat mitigated by adding police as the town grows.

Should we not build the rail because crime may increase?
Should we not build cars because people may die in them?
Should we not explore space because of its dangers?

There is nothing wrong with fear. It's healthy to have fear and be concerned. I just prefer to confront my fears, more often than not, there's nothing to be afraid in the first place, and in those situations where it's legitimate, ie. terrorism, crime, etc. - I prefer to focus on those committing the acts.

I don't attribute higher rates of crime, terrorism, or whatever to groups based on their ethnicity, but a more likely correlation of socioeconomic status.

Chris Rock isn't going to be mugging me anytime soon. Jennifer Lopez isn't going to be stealing my TV. Jackie Chan isn't going to steal my car.

They say that serial killers are predominantly working, intelligent, white males that blend in with the rest of us in society, but that doesn't make me fear CV, Brett, Bish, John, UV... Wait, I take that back....

[BlueStateMom]

[CostcoLover, BCF: Great discussion, really good points raised. Thanks.

[Kerri Howell]

I am with costco on this one. Anyone remember Timothy McVeigh? He wasn't someone anybody would have even noticed, and he was a veteran. How about the juvenile murderers at Columbine? Again, nobody that anybody would have thought about or looked at twice. I have not looked up the stats, but would venture a guess that there have been far more people murdered or otherwise violated in the US this year by white males, who were born in the US, than by any other group.

[K Rat]

Why does everyone have such a short memory. Do you people realize how many countless attacks have been carried-out by young middle-eastern men around the world in the last 20-30 years, all in the name of their religion? Why do you people want to sweep those under the rug? I guess you don't mind that they are now bringing the terrorism to our shores. Brush-up on recent history of terrorism around the world and maybe you'll start to understand. Geez.

[folsom500]

Why does everyone have such a short memory. Do you people realize how many countless attacks have been carried-out by young middle-eastern men around the world in the last 20-30 years, all in the name of their religion? Why do you people want to sweep those under the rug? I guess you don't mind that they are now bringing the terrorism to our shores. Brush-up on recent history of terrorism around the world and maybe you'll start to understand. Geez.

I would suggest that YOU and others brush up on the FACTS.
So where have those that perpetrated the terrorist acts come from ?

Did you know the Majority of those using the existing temporary Mosque in Folsom and surrounding area are from countries that have NEVER been linked to ANY terrorist acts ?

Also - your concerns on Traffic are unfounded as well-
the New Spiffy ( or whatever it is called) car wash will get more traffic in a week than the Mosque...

Your fears are unfounded ....


Cheers
F500

[Terry]

Why does everyone have such a short memory. Do you people realize how many countless attacks have been carried-out by young middle-eastern men around the world in the last 20-30 years, all in the name of their religion? Why do you people want to sweep those under the rug? I guess you don't mind that they are now bringing the terrorism to our shores. Brush-up on recent history of terrorism around the world and maybe you'll start to understand. Geez.

I don't believe it's an issues of a "short memory". It's an issue of understanding that there are and can be dangers everywhere.

I believe those terrorist factions who would bomb or otherwise attack our citizenry, are unlikely to be part of the group who submitted an application to the city of Folsom to build their house of worship. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

What would you propose as a solution? And remember, we have a Constitution and a Bill of Rights which we try very hard to embrace.

[CostcoLover]

Why does everyone have such a short memory. Do you people realize how many countless attacks have been carried-out by young middle-eastern men around the world in the last 20-30 years, all in the name of their religion? Why do you people want to sweep those under the rug? I guess you don't mind that they are now bringing the terrorism to our shores. Brush-up on recent history of terrorism around the world and maybe you'll start to understand. Geez.

- Apologies up front for the lengthy post -

I doubt anyone has forgotten a thing about terrorist attacks. And for those that may have forgotten, one only has to turn on the TV to be reminded.

Noone is denying the existence of terrorism, or the fact that there will be continued attacks against American and western interests around the world until the end of the war on terror. A war that I don't see ending any time soon - even with a Democratic and independent Iraq.

I'm willing to wager that more Americans have died at the hands of other Americans (murder) throughout the U.S. over the last 40yrs, than at the hands of terrorist attacks from 1960 to the present.

In NY alone, 63,302 people were murdered from 1960-2000.
http://www.disasterc...ime/nycrime.htm

In the U.S. 732,031 people have been murdered from 1960-2000.
http://www.disasterc...ime/uscrime.htm

By comparison,

In the Vietnam conflict 58,148 Americans were killed. http://www.vietnam-war.info/facts/

In the Korean war 36,940 died in theater during the war.
http://www.korean-war.info/facts/

In WWII the U.S. lost 407,000 servicemembers and 6,000 American civilians for a total of 413,000
http://www.world-war...nfo/statistics/

In WWI the U.S. lost 57,476 servicemembers. http://www.world-war...nfo/statistics/

In the Civil War it's estimated 360,000 Americans died. (We were killing each other)
http://www.civil-war.ws/statistics/

As you can see, in the last 40yrs, more Americans have died at the hands of our own people right here at home than all foreign wars combined.

Odds of dying from a terrorist attack are 1 in 88,000.
Heart Disease 1-in-5
Cancer 1-in-7
Stroke 1-in-23
Accidental Injury 1-in-36
Motor Vehicle Accident* 1-in-100
Intentional Self-harm (suicide) 1-in-121

http://www.tomatopag...indpost&p=69472

Frankly, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a greater frequency of terrorist attacks both here and abroad.

The world has always been a dangerous place. A fact that most Americans chose to ignore until 9/11. It hasn't gotten more dangerous just because you've now become aware. Heck, most Americans are clueless as to the murder rates in our own country. We tend to exaggerate one danger over another mainly due to the influence of the media.

The U.S. Muslim population is approximately 1% or 3 million American Muslims.
There are 1.3 billion Muslims worldwide.
http://www.cia.gov/c...ok/geos/us.html
http://www.adherents..._Adherents.html

Are you proposing that we limit the constitutional rights that so many Americans have fought around the world to defend because you fear 1, 2 or 3% of radical (terrorists) Muslims? What about the other 97% of American Muslims?

Heck, lets up the numbers to 10% of Muslims are terrorists and 20% sympathizers, are you proposing we take the rights away of 70% of peace loving American Muslims that wish to worship?

Just exactly how many Muslims do you think are terrorists or terrorist sympathizers?

My advice is to go after the terrorists, murderers, pedophiles, rapists, etc. And no, they won't have a stamp on their forehead indicating their criminal affiliation, they will be part of the fabric of our society and will look just like you and me.

[bishmasterb]

cloud,

Good points. Reminds of something I heard said shortly after 9/11.

Someone was asked their advice for staying safe in the face of terrorist attacks, the reply was "Stop smoking and wear your seatbelt."

[LexHillsmom]

The Sacramento Bee has written a scathing editorial addressing this issue today in the editorial section of the Bee.

[Farley]

The Sacramento Bee has written a scathing editorial addressing this issue today in the editorial section of the Bee.

Yes, it refers to myfolsom.com which is a good thing. Then it takes off on the "wackos" who live here an oppose the mosque.

The article does enlighten the public about most of our innocent posts on myforum, but then takes a negative turn about the negativity re: the mosque.

The title of the article is: FOLSOM MOSQUE HYSTERIA
A Few Wackos give city a bad name