627 replies to this topic

[Vicenzo]

Interesting article, but lets not overlook the key points in the article that are central to this debate. Maybe that's why the people here are not feeling much sympathy with the teachers.

- The U.S. government has a bigger unfunded liability for military and civil servant retirement benefits ($4.7 trillion) than it does for Social Security ($4.6 trillion).

- The pension gap will continue to widen because governments pump far more money into employee pensions than companies do. Civil servants earn an average of $12.38 an hour in benefits, about $5 an hour more than private-sector workers, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The difference was just $2.70 an hour in 1995.

- Supporters of government pensions say the decline in private pensions is the problem, not the generosity of public retirement plans. "Rather than lower the bar for public employees, we need to stabilize retirement programs for everyone," says Richard Ferlauto, director of pension and benefit policy for the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, a union with 1.4 million members.

- He acknowledges public pensions are getting more scrutiny. "People want to know, 'Why should you have more security than us?' " he says. "It's pension envy."

- State and local governments have sweetened retirement benefits during the past decade at a time when corporations have soured on them because of their cost. Only 18% of private workers now have traditional defined benefit pension plans, compared with more than 80% of government employees.

- Contrary to a widely held notion, the extra government benefits aren't compensation for lower pay. Most government workers are paid more than private employees in similar jobs, and the wage gap is growing.

- A typical full-time state or local government worker made $78,853 in wages and benefits in the third quarter of 2006, $25,771 more than a typical private-sector worker, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports. The difference was $7,604 in 2000.

The compensation advantage holds true for all types of public workers, from teachers to laborers and managers. Better benefits for government workers is the biggest reason for the growing compensation gap.

[cw68]

This might explain the division in this debate.

http://usatoday.com/...POE=click-refer

Pension gap divides public and private workers
Updated 2/21/2007 2:29 AM ET E-mail | Save | Print | Reprints & Permissions | Subscribe to stories like this Subscribe to stories like this
By Dennis Cauchon, USA TODAY
Johnnie Nichols, a civilian Defense Department employee, contributes to a federal pension that will let him retire at age 56, after 32 years of service.

His wife, Kimberly, a math teacher at a private business college, has no pension after two decades of teaching and running a horse farm. Their marriage reflects the new world of retirement: government employees who have secure benefits and private workers who increasingly are on their own.

"If we were both in her shoes, we'd be in a world of hurt," says Nichols, 45, an information technology manager in Middletown, Ind. "We wouldn't be able to retire until age 67."

As the first wave of 79 million baby boomers heads to retirement, the nation is dividing into two classes of workers: those who have government benefits and those who don't. The gap is accelerating in every way — pensions, medical benefits, retirement ages.

Retired government workers are twice as likely to get a pension as their counterparts in the private sector, and the typical benefit is far more generous. The nation's 6 million retired civil servants — teachers, police, administrators, laborers — received a median benefit of $17,640 in 2005, according to the Congressional Research Service. Eleven million private-sector retirees covered by traditional pensions got $7,692.

This is why it's very important to contribute to 401k, IRAs and the like. Even little tiny bits when you're young add up to very significant amounts when you're old.

[Ice]

This is why it's very important to contribute to 401k, IRAs and the like. Even little tiny bits when you're young add up to very significant amounts when you're old.

Saving is all good and well, but the article clearly shows government workers advantaged.

Government workers can also contribute to their savings plans and IRAs. The article compares government pension to private pensions. The difference is about $10k

You'd have to contribute $10k to a 401k just to match the government pension.

"Pensions for civil servants often are superior to private pensions in subtle ways that make a huge financial difference. For example, government pensions:

•Generally base benefits on a worker's top three earning years. Private pensions typically base benefits on the top five years of pay, which lowers the average.

•Often let retirees add the value of overtime, unused leave and other benefits into the pension formula. The results can be extreme. Dover, N.H., Police Chief William Fenniman, 46, added more than $200,000 for severance, sick leave and other payouts into his three-year salary average when he retired in January. This will boost his retirement benefit to as much as $125,000 a year, more than he made as chief.

•Permit early retirement at age 50 or 55 with less of a benefit reduction than private pensions.

•Provide free or subsidized medical care for retirees under age 65 and supplemental coverage after that for those on Medicare.

•More often provide automatic cost-of-living increases to benefits."

[cw68]

Saving is all good and well, but the article clearly shows government workers advantaged.

Without a doubt. So those in the private sector need to factor their disadvantage into their retirement plans.

[tessieca]

In the Sac. Bee this a.m.: Sac City Teachers Get 5% Raise.

Management and labor in the Sacramento City Unified School District have reached agreement on a new three-year contract.

The contract, which both sides approved last week, gives teachers a 5 percent pay raise -- 3 percent retroactive to July 1, 2006, and 2 percent on April 1 of this year. Teachers' pay will range from $40,000 to $84,000.

[supermom]

I think there are way too many personal agendas in the argument of whether FCUSD should honor a previous agreement between the teachers and the school board. Period. A promise was made and is not being honored. That is a breach of contract. Verbal or written.
How do you go home and justify to your children that honesty and committment are a core value then not place emphasis on upholding the promises that were not kept? The school board is not keeping withing the school code of conduct yet maintaining that children at school must uphold these values. Shame on THEM. Either give the teachers the raise that was promised or give them an even better raise. NOTHING LESS!!!!! Stop attacking the teachers for expecting what is rightfully theirs. If the teachers don't strike I just might. Anybody know where I can buy a big sign?!!!

[tessieca]

What are you talking about? There is no prior agreement nor contract that is being breached. The district and the unions are in what we call "negotiations" to determine how last year's contract should be changed. There was no raise promised, and it remains in dispute how much that should be.

[Jolene]

What are you talking about? There is no prior agreement nor contract that is being breached. The district and the unions are in what we call "negotiations" to determine how last year's contract should be changed. There was no raise promised, and it remains in dispute how much that should be.

I think she might be referencing the agreement that was reached regarding the pay cut for class size issue? I am still unclear on this, so don't know how to reference it correctly, but I think that is what "supermom" is referring to.

[cw68]

I think there are way too many personal agendas in the argument of whether FCUSD should honor a previous agreement between the teachers and the school board. Period. A promise was made and is not being honored. That is a breach of contract. Verbal or written.
How do you go home and justify to your children that honesty and committment are a core value then not place emphasis on upholding the promises that were not kept? The school board is not keeping withing the school code of conduct yet maintaining that children at school must uphold these values. Shame on THEM. Either give the teachers the raise that was promised or give them an even better raise. NOTHING LESS!!!!! Stop attacking the teachers for expecting what is rightfully theirs. If the teachers don't strike I just might. Anybody know where I can buy a big sign?!!!

It is my understanding (not very knowledgable about the situation) that the teachers believed that when they took a reduction the district would pony up when they got the money. I stated before that if that is the case, then I believe the district should own up.

Regardless, this is inappropriate discussion for the classroom.

[dan76]

Yes, there is something I don't understand. If your leaving FCUSD would result in you making LESS money, then how is FCUSD at the bottom of the list? (I have a feeling I know what the answer to this question will be. So, this is a somewhat rhetorical question.)

If you don't understand how many years of teaching a district will accept and what units they will let you transfer from one district to another then you should excuse yourself from the conversation. You are just muddying up the waters with your lack of knowledge of this issue.

Same goes for the rest of you. If you aren't a teacher or live with one day in and day out you have no idea of what you are talking about and just spouting out the typical, "I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night" Internet BS. Just keep your pie holes shut and go back to the threads that you know so much better like "worst eating places in town" and the malls.

As for you TM70 and other teachers that might be on here. I am behind you 100%, but move on and go enjoy some time with your family. This thread is a no win situation with a bunch of people that have little better to do that hang out on the net. Most are uninformed and just like to argue and pad post counts. Take the high road and move on from here.

[gingerkid]

Look back to page 21 to see what happened with the voluntary decrease in pay. It sounds like the promises, if any, were already granted back in fall 2004.

This is misstated. Three years ago the teachers did take a pay cut in 2003-04 in order to 1) keep some 3rd grade class sizes reduced (avoid teacher layoffs), 2) maintain athletic and activities directors at the high schools (avoid certificated staff layoffs or reassignments), and 3) keep the high school counselor ratios up (avoid certificated staff layoffs). That year they chose to maintain their bargaining unit members and decreased their salaries by a voluntary .62% reduction (there was an additional formula driven reduction of .0885% for a total of 1.505% reduction).

.62% is nowhere close to 8%, so I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers. Also, they already got back the voluntarily reduced salary.

The .62% was reinstated on top of their increase the next year in 2004-05. The formula driven reduction was never intended to be reinstated and never was reinstated. By 2004-05 school year the salaries were back where they would have been had the .62% decrease never occurred.

Why do the teachers on the site insist on being so vicious whenever someone so much as asks a question? If I started reading this and was favoring support of our teachers, I would quickly lose that when I see the personal criticism of people who don't buy their party line hook, line and sinker.

I guess it's true, if you don't have the facts to support you, attack the messenger. Doubt it will work for you.

[Jolene]

Same goes for the rest of you. If you aren't a teacher or live with one day in and day out you have no idea of what you are talking about...

This is such a great attitude to give to the parents of children who have time and time again stated that they are pro-teacher, but don't agree with the tactics used here. So, really... all of those parents who are PRO-TEACHER really have no right to join in this discussion simply because they, themselves, are not teachers and/or don't live with one, day in and day out?

The parents who don't want their children being used as pawns in this battle really don't have a right to speak up?

The parents who want to support the teachers, but want to - oh my GOODNESS, say it isn't so! - have all the facts, they don't have a right to speak up, simply because they are not teachers?

Really. Is this the attitude of the teachers? Either support us or... what was it? "Keep your pie holes shut"? What a shame.

[supermom]

I think she might be referencing the agreement that was reached regarding the pay cut for class size issue? I am still unclear on this, so don't know how to reference it correctly, but I think that is what "supermom" is referring to.

Yup thats what I was referring to. I was looking for the actual quote. Why should the teachers have to take the brunt of a pay cut to make the classes smaller? Who ever thought that the correlation between class room size and teacher pay is an acceptable solution to (mismanaged ? ) finances? The teachers at my kids school aren't wearing green shirts every day. hmmm i'll have to ask the kids if they see the shirts on specific days.

Look don't get twisted just because I think teachers should be competetively waged alongside of state workers or even emergency workers. Why? Because if kids are our future then why not invest in the best future we can give them. After you have invested in the first 12 school years of their lives - look at the percentage of kids who move onto college. Was it worth educating the kids who couldn't afford to go to college? Well, since a large portion of them will be in emergency positions (cops, firefighters,military, homeland security) I am gonna say yes.

Oh, yeah, don't you think it weird that cops( who are only required to have a high school diploma) get paid more than you? Initially cops go to school for 3 months then they can carry a gun. Teachers go to school for how many years before they can wield a dry erase marker?


Discrepancies in pay are not anything new. Society places the value of a job performed and the education required into a format often know as SALARY. If you want your salary raised or adjusted then sometimes a bit of opinion voicing is healthy. I respect that. But the truth is that I don't want a bitter teacher in my kids class. I would rather see (and do see every day) a teacher who looks at a student and see's their potential and enjoys the challenge! So again, give the teacher's their fair due and move on.

My third grader this year loves his teacher. So, that means I love his teacher. My 5th grader loves/hates her teacher-so that means I worship the ground that teacher walks on. Folsom teachers Rock!

[dan76]

Really. Is this the attitude of the teachers? Either support us or... what was it? "Keep your pie holes shut"? What a shame.

I'm not a teacher.

[Jolene]

I'm not a teacher.

And yet you seem to be speaking for them? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how your original post read.