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Lowest Paid In Sacramento


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#376 dan76

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 02:36 PM

QUOTE(Jolene @ Feb 21 2007, 02:27 PM) View Post
And yet you seem to be speaking for them? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how your original post read.


Nope...speaking for myself as I know the profession well. My opinion. Everyone go outside and play now. Time to get back to some fabbing. I will be off here for a few days as I do have a life, so if you reply back to this, expect to wait a bit for an answer if at all. TIA


#377 DrKoz23

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 02:54 PM

QUOTE(dan76 @ Feb 21 2007, 01:32 PM) View Post
Same goes for the rest of you. If you aren't a teacher or live with one day in and day out you have no idea of what you are talking about and just spouting out the typical, "I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night" Internet BS. Just keep your pie holes shut and go back to the threads that you know so much better like "worst eating places in town" and the malls.


Your logic is hilarious. It just cracks me up.

So if someone doesn't have kids... they can't comment or have an opinion on how they should be raised?

If someone isn't in the military... they shouldn't comment or have an opinion on how the Iraq war is being run?

This is one of the worst arguments (okay... probably the worst) I've read on this entire thread. You seem to be taking this a little personally... don't you?

#378 forumreader

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 05:04 PM

QUOTE(dan76 @ Feb 21 2007, 01:32 PM) View Post
Same goes for the rest of you. If you aren't a teacher or live with one day in and day out you have no idea of what you are talking about and just spouting out the typical, "I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night" Internet BS. Just keep your pie holes shut and go back to the threads that you know so much better like "worst eating places in town" and the malls.


Hmm...As voters, taxpayers and/or parents, we certainly do have a right and a responsibility to ask questions and discuss this matter. Sorry, dan76, but I don't understand your angry post.

#379 cw68

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 05:43 PM

QUOTE(supermom @ Feb 21 2007, 02:09 PM) View Post
Oh, yeah, don't you think it weird that cops( who are only required to have a high school diploma) get paid more than you?

No, it don't think it's weird. Cops put their lives on the line everyday and have to deal with the dreags (sp?) of society. More power to them.

#380 Parizienne

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 07:59 PM

Wow. The disdain is appalling. I think wanting to make a competitive wage working in a district with superior test scores and programs is not unreasonable.

Some of you seem to think that changing teaching jobs is easy. It's not. If you are, say, an engineer with ten years' experience, and you change jobs, you generally get paid whatever engineers in the next company with ten years' experience are making. If you are a teacher with ten years' experience and you leave for another district, you will likely only get compensated for roughly five to eight years of your experience -- even if you have more years of quality teaching backing you. I have seen an occasional district offer credit for up to twelve years' experience, but that is not the norm.

I could say more, but I really don't think it would matter much.


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#381 jen

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 08:45 PM

Pari, the people who are supposedly speaking for the teachers are the ones who are creating the disdain. Many of us are just parents who want the best teachers in our classrooms, want the facts on both sides of the issue, and disagree with some of the tactics that are promoted by the union. But whenever we speak up, we are called names and told to shut our pieholes?! The sort of response we're receiving from teachers and their closest supporters is what is causing us parents to become upset and opposed to their agenda.

#382 akmommy

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 09:51 PM

Please remember that the teachers who post here speak only for themselves. As a teacher, I do not wish to be associated with some of the comments made here by teachers. The teachers that I have met in FCUSD have been nothing but wonderful--patient, caring, organized, prepared--and I hope I have sufficiently let them know how much I appreciate everything they have done for my son.

I do not teach in FCUSD, but have gone through the process of contract negotiations in a nearby district in Placer County. After working for over a year without a valid contract, we did the same color shirt Fridays (which I couldn't stand-but did), the car window posters (did it), and were given buttons to wear (refused). We were told, REPEATEDLY, by our union representative at our campus, the union president, and our administration NOT to discuss ANY part of the contract negotiation process with our students (or with each other--or parents--in earshot of students during school hours). The negotiation process was between the staff and the district, and any parents that chose to involve themselves. If we were approached by older students with questions, we referred them to their parents. Simple as that.

As a parent and a teacher, class time is too valuable to be spent on anything but teaching the subjects/standards. There is enough drama in the lives of these children, they DO NOT need to hear about negotiations, and there are plenty of other ways to teach kids about economics and standing up for what you believe in.

One more thing--The idea of a strike was never discussed in my district, and I truly hope it is a threat or rumor that never sees the light of day here. One thing that did make an impact, was the teachers STOPPED all volunteer activities (student council, coaching, tutoring afterschool) and purchasing supplies with their own money. It was a very plain way to demonstrate all of the things that are done each day that go unaccounted for (for those folks who still believe teachers only work 6 hour days).

Let's hope the impasse process moves along quickly and that this gets resolved SOON.



#383 cw68

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 09:52 PM

QUOTE(jen @ Feb 21 2007, 08:45 PM) View Post
Pari, the people who are supposedly speaking for the teachers are the ones who are creating the disdain. Many of us are just parents who want the best teachers in our classrooms, want the facts on both sides of the issue, and disagree with some of the tactics that are promoted by the union. But whenever we speak up, we are called names and told to shut our pieholes?! The sort of response we're receiving from teachers and their closest supporters is what is causing us parents to become upset and opposed to their agenda.

+1

#384 DrKoz23

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 10:08 PM

QUOTE(akmommy @ Feb 21 2007, 09:51 PM) View Post
Please remember that the teachers who post here speak only for themselves. As a teacher, I do not wish to be associated with some of the comments made here by teachers. The teachers that I have met in FCUSD have been nothing but wonderful--patient, caring, organized, prepared--and I hope I have sufficiently let them know how much I appreciate everything they have done for my son.

I do not teach in FCUSD, but have gone through the process of contract negotiations in a nearby district in Placer County. After working for over a year without a valid contract, we did the same color shirt Fridays (which I couldn't stand-but did), the car window posters (did it), and were given buttons to wear (refused). We were told, REPEATEDLY, by our union representative at our campus, the union president, and our administration NOT to discuss ANY part of the contract negotiation process with our students (or with each other--or parents--in earshot of students during school hours). The negotiation process was between the staff and the district, and any parents that chose to involve themselves. If we were approached by older students with questions, we referred them to their parents. Simple as that.

As a parent and a teacher, class time is too valuable to be spent on anything but teaching the subjects/standards. There is enough drama in the lives of these children, they DO NOT need to hear about negotiations, and there are plenty of other ways to teach kids about economics and standing up for what you believe in.

One more thing--The idea of a strike was never discussed in my district, and I truly hope it is a threat or rumor that never sees the light of day here. One thing that did make an impact, was the teachers STOPPED all volunteer activities (student council, coaching, tutoring afterschool) and purchasing supplies with their own money. It was a very plain way to demonstrate all of the things that are done each day that go unaccounted for (for those folks who still believe teachers only work 6 hour days).

Let's hope the impasse process moves along quickly and that this gets resolved SOON.


Well thought out post! I figure that most teachers do not discuss the negotiations with their students... and it is good to hear how valuable you feel the time in the classroom is to you and your students.

#385 Parizienne

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 10:29 PM

QUOTE(jen @ Feb 21 2007, 08:45 PM) View Post
Pari, the people who are supposedly speaking for the teachers are the ones who are creating the disdain. Many of us are just parents who want the best teachers in our classrooms, want the facts on both sides of the issue, and disagree with some of the tactics that are promoted by the union. But whenever we speak up, we are called names and told to shut our pieholes?! The sort of response we're receiving from teachers and their closest supporters is what is causing us parents to become upset and opposed to their agenda.


I understand. Emotions are running strong on both sides, actually. I do see that parents want both sides, as do I. I am also a parent in this district. I have kids in elementary and middle school. I would ask the community members here to keep in mind that the teachers are extremely frustrated. I feel that, as a newcomer, I can be a little more impartial because I don't have the animosity relating to what has occurred in the past. However, I still maintain that negotiations can only occur when there is a legitimate dialogue, which now will be handled by an outside mediator.

I saw a document today that stated the district came to the table at the very beginning with their last, best and final offer to avoid the haggling game. Yet, when I speak to my colleagues, they tell me that the district didn't advise the union of this in the beginning of the negotiating process. According to a particular colleague, there was an expectation to "negotiate" by the union. Apparently, the district wanted to cut to the chase, which, as a person with a business background, makes sense to me as long as they were up front about that approach at the outset.

But there must have been a lapse in their communication with the union or something. Otherwise, why would so many unit members be this frustrated? There had to be a disconnect someplace. There is a lot of "we say"/"they say" going on. We need to know what's true, and there is such lack of trust, that it's hard to know whether what's being offered, is indeed, truly the best and the most reasonable. I want facts, but where are they? I can get one set from the district and another from the union. Clearly, there are two interpretations of the same "facts." And further muddying the waters is the lack of trust between the two parties - or is it really just one-sided -- that the teachers don't trust the district? I am not sure.

The aforementioned lack of trust is what speaks more to me than whatever the offer is. It smacks of an oppressive, ill-conceived notion that the teachers don't need the negotation process which should be based on informed, honest dialogue. Why is there such lack of trust? Why does the district not address this with the teachers? Many of my colleagues feel insulted about how this has all been handled.

While I absolutely respect why my colleagues here in this forum are so frustrated, I would ask those parents who take issue with this to consider that it would be ill-advised to formulate opinions about this matter based upon a narrow selection of perspectives. Rather than make judgments, consider why the situation has become so emotional. It's not because teachers are greedy money-mongers. We are all educated, highly educated. You can't teach in this state if you have any less than 5 1/2 years of college, and in order to keep teaching here you must continue to educate yourself beyond that initial requirement. Sure, there are "bad" teachers out there with bad attitudes. I don't think these teachers are among them. I think they're tired of fighting for fairness over and over again. The vast majority of us are deeply compassionate and care very much for our students and love going to work every day. We continually teach students that standing up for yourself and making a difference is admirable and right. With that embedded in our character, how could we not take issue and vocalize our views when we feel something's not right?

If you were to decide not to support the teachers because you were turned off by the frustrated ventings of people here, you are doing yourself and the community-at-large (including our children) a disservice by allowing yourself to be swayed by something other than facts. You are allowing your emotions to rule your head as well. No matter how you view it, it doesn't look pretty on either side when it comes to that.


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#386 Parizienne

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 10:38 PM

QUOTE: **We continually teach students that standing up for yourself and making a difference is admirable and right. With that embedded in our character, how could we not take issue and vocalize our views when we feel something's not right? **


Just wanting to clarify that I don't advocate "vocalizing" these issues during class time. That's not what I meant when I said the above. I was referring to venting here in the forum.

=)

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#387 supermom

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 09:35 AM

QUOTE(jen @ Feb 21 2007, 08:45 PM) View Post
Pari, the people who are supposedly speaking for the teachers are the ones who are creating the disdain. Many of us are just parents who want the best teachers in our classrooms, want the facts on both sides of the issue, and disagree with some of the tactics that are promoted by the union. But whenever we speak up, we are called names and told to shut our pieholes?! The sort of response we're receiving from teachers and their closest supporters is what is causing us parents to become upset and opposed to their agenda.

Pari, wow... that was an impassioned view which promotes others to want to see your view point. Jen I agree with you for the most part, however I am not opposed to 'their agenda'. Like most people who want acknowledgement of their fine services many feel that their pay mirrors how their employers feel about their performance.

On the other hand, it is disheartening to see angry posts by both sides. I suppose that 'the piehole' comment was a bit over the top but I do not think all teachers and their supporters would have used the same language.

After, reviewing many posts I do have to say I would like to clarify one part of my postion.
At no time do I feel that speaking about the Teachers pay or Union should be a part of any teachers agenda in the class room unless that class is structured on Civics or American History and/or Business or even Speech and Debate. Please notice I said structured. I do have faith that most teachers can and do know how to teach a class to view both sides of an arguement.
Obviously, children must learn to take away from any discussion both points of view and decide for themselves where they stand on any given point. With that said, I have to say that if someones child came home and informed them their was only one side to an arguement-that parent may want to review their childs ability to cognizantly be aware of a discussion before blasting a teacher for giving only one side of an argument. I just don't see that happening with 30 some odd kids in a class. I don't know maybe I am wrong; after all my kids haven't gotten to middle school yet.



#388 cw68

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 09:49 AM

I have an eight-grader as a house guest this week while her parents are both away on a work trip. We were talking about this last night. A few of her teachers have been talking about this during class. "L" seemed quite upset that her teachers have to pay "more than $600 per month for health insurance." She said that the school district doesn't care about the teachers, that they are taking advantage of the teachers.

When I asked her if she thought that this was OK discussion for class she said "Yes, it's the only real world thing I'm learning." So I asked her if she was told about the district's arguments, mediation or anything representing the other point of view. She replied no. So then I asked her if she was glad her teacher(s) were talking about this and she said, "No, not really. Now it's just another thing I worry about. I mean, it's not like I think about this 24/7, but I worry about my teacher being able to get her kids to the doctor. I think I'm going to ask my Mom if she can take me out of school for the next protest like the one on Friday. Besides, I like her talking about it because then we don't have as much classwork!"

Perhaps it's just me, but that's not what I want for my kids.

#389 Steve Heard

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 10:10 AM

I think I was meant to be a teacher. I have been told that I am a 'natural' at it. I love to teach, I love to research, I care about kids. I do teach karate, but only a couple of hours a week. I do this out of passion for it, rather than the few bucks I get out of it. I occasionally volunteer to teach kids self-defense classes, such as at the Mather transitional housing facility. I am not a professional school teacher, however, because it doesn't pay enough to support the kind of lifestyle I desire.

That's the same reason I am not a travel agent, bartender, jazz musician or fast-food worker. All noble professions, but I can't support myself and my family by doing any of those jobs.

If someday I decide to become a teacher, I will do so knowing what the pay and benefit structure is.

As much as I recognize the need for teachers, and as much as I value teachers, I have to say that those who become teachers know going in what the pay and benefit structure is. If the district or profession isn't paying enough, one must find a higher paying position or a different career.

Once districts start loosing teachers, they will start doing the things businesses do to attract more and better employees. They will offer better pay and benefit packages.

I know a lot of teachers. I have some in my family. I respect and admire them. I tell them, though, that they knew going in what the job entailed, and if it no longer meets their salary and benefit requirements, they should go to work for a district that pays more, or do something else for a living.


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#390 dan76

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 10:19 AM

QUOTE(DrKoz23 @ Feb 21 2007, 02:54 PM) View Post
Your logic is hilarious. It just cracks me up.

So if someone doesn't have kids... they can't comment or have an opinion on how they should be raised?

If someone isn't in the military... they shouldn't comment or have an opinion on how the Iraq war is being run?

This is one of the worst arguments (okay... probably the worst) I've read on this entire thread. You seem to be taking this a little personally... don't you?



Not taking in personally at all since I AM NOT A TEACHER tongue.gif

Sure you can have an opinion, and thats why this thread is 25+ pages long. Everyone on here that is not the SBP or teachers throw out their "opinions" on which they know nothing about and have to be constantly corrected. The first 20 pges of this thread where how the teachers were overpaid, only work a couple hours a day, and have 4 months off per year, so how can they get a raise? Your "opinions" were all completely wrong. I believe one person even went so far to say that when you look at teachers salaries, benefits, time off, they are actually making closer to $100,000 a year. And you call my logic hilarious? Get real DR.

Do you people really have nothing better to do than worry about how much someone gets paid and how much time off they get? You do know that there are many other professions in this world that pay much more than teaching. Why aren't you going after them? Maybe when its time for you to get a raise at your job you can post up here how much you make and how much more you want and we can all discuss it and judge whether you really deserve it even though we know nothing about your career and job duties. After 25+ pages of this thread it all boils down to one point and one simple question.

Why is everone here against someone else getting a raise? Its really that simple. Please no answers over 10 words. I'm not looking for essays on such a simple question. Don't bring in the private vs public sector. Don't use the taxpayer angle. Don't play the kid card.




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