627 replies to this topic

[supermom]

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cw 68: that is I am sure a shocker for you. A kid wanting out of class for the day. However, I can see that "L" did not take everything she could have from her class discussion. On the other side of the fence, though, I agree that as a parent I most certainly would be wondering right now just how much of both sides had been presented to "L". But let's get to the real nitty gritty of this.
Had you had the same conversation with "L" prior to the teacher making contact about the subject could you have done a better job? Perhaps you would have stretched out all the facts in small doses over the limited 50 minute class periods. Would you promote your child to stand at a protest to encourage civic awareness? The only reason I ask is because I often ask myself the same questions when my kids come home with off the wall comments which I feel obliged to re-educate them on. Like two days ago my kids came home and blurted out, "did you know the principal is quitting?"
That was really a surprise. Ofcourse that turned out to be rumor and hearsay, which merited a nice discussion all by itself. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I am not opposed to kids becoming aware of things that are going on around them. I would rather these conversations happen in a 'structured' mannner than for the kids to lurk around the hallways and see teachers wearing their special shirts or buttons or seeing the signs on cars, then for the kids to make their own un-educated guesses on what is going on around them. Kids I think perceive more than they admit. They certainly hear more than they admit. Family conversations are a great way to round out the character of debate. Ofcoarse again, I would feel remiss if I did not remind you that My kids are not in middle school yet; so maybe my perceptions are off?

[cw68]

I would have totally wanted to get out of class for a day and have less classwork during class, too. Also, I love me a protest!

But it was more about her saying it was just another thing she was worried about and only hearing one side of the argument that bothers me. I swear I wasn't tyring to sway her, I was asking simple, direct questions because I wanted to see what her view was. My daughter is in kindergarten and I know that her teacher isn't talking about it. I wanted to see what she was taking from it.

[Robert Giacometti]

Not taking in personally at all since I AM NOT A TEACHER

Sure you can have an opinion, and thats why this thread is 25+ pages long. Everyone on here that is not the SBP or teachers throw out their "opinions" on which they know nothing about and have to be constantly corrected. The first 20 pges of this thread where how the teachers were overpaid, only work a couple hours a day, and have 4 months off per year, so how can they get a raise? Your "opinions" were all completely wrong. I believe one person even went so far to say that when you look at teachers salaries, benefits, time off, they are actually making closer to $100,000 a year. And you call my logic hilarious? Get real DR.

Do you people really have nothing better to do than worry about how much someone gets paid and how much time off they get? You do know that there are many other professions in this world that pay much more than teaching. Why aren't you going after them? Maybe when its time for you to get a raise at your job you can post up here how much you make and how much more you want and we can all discuss it and judge whether you really deserve it even though we know nothing about your career and job duties. After 25+ pages of this thread it all boils down to one point and one simple question.

Why is everone here against someone else getting a raise? Its really that simple. Please no answers over 10 words. I'm not looking for essays on such a simple question. Don't bring in the private vs public sector. Don't use the taxpayer angle. Don't play the kid card.

I'm opposed to cutting educational programs to pay ANYONE more!

[Jolene]

I'm opposed to cutting educational programs to pay ANYONE more!

Wow! Exactly 10 words! Good job, Robert!

[supermom]

I would have totally wanted to get out of class for a day and have less classwork during class, too. Also, I love me a protest!

But it was more about her saying it was just another thing she was worried about and only hearing one side of the argument that bothers me. I swear I wasn't tyring to sway her, I was asking simple, direct questions because I wanted to see what her view was. My daughter is in kindergarten and I know that her teacher isn't talking about it. I wanted to see what she was taking from it.

Well, maybe you are right. I mean if the kid only gets from a conversation-1 side, then maybe they aren't ready for civic awareness and government classes or discussions. Sadly, I see that many full grown adults never reached beyond a good debate class either. I suppose from now on, instead of calling them morons, I'll just call them middle schoolers. Ok I know that was probably over the top and someone will feel the need to retaliate to such a strong statement but really, how many people have you met in your life whom you wish had learned more in 8th grade government class, before spouting politics?
Ps. I applaud you in showing your interest to an 8th grader on what their views are. That just reinforces there natural curiosity to question and learn. Maybe today "L" will ask more questions and become more informed.

[dan76]

I'm opposed to cutting educational programs to pay ANYONE more!

Thanks for keeping it short. No programs are getting cut.

[cw68]

Ps. I applaud you in showing your interest to an 8th grader on what their views are. That just reinforces there natural curiosity to question and learn. Maybe today "L" will ask more questions and become more informed.

L and I have been having a great time the past few days! It's easy to forget how simple life is as a teenager (my foot hurts, so I took off my shoe. do I look stupid wearing just one shoe? Ooh, I love MySpace!). I have a different perspective than her Mom (who's a friend of mine) and she said to me this morning, "Gosh, I'm learning so much from you! You should homeschool me!" Obviously an exaggeration, but I was talking about Shakespeare to her last night after she asked why my cats were named Rosalind and Celia. That kind of thing. I'm very civics-oriented and her Mom's not. It's very cool.

[supermom]

I'm opposed to cutting educational programs to pay ANYONE more!

Did anyone say anything about cutting programs? I thought the argument was more about teachers being paid a competetive wage for the services rendered. Further, I thought that this was about defining the types and amount of gratutities a teacher shall receive annually in the new contract (for cola). My mistake but in the postion I hold COLA stands for cost of living allowances. Usually this is applied to wages when the employer acknowledges that the sum of basic pay is not aligned with the fair housing costs where the employment takes place. Example: So if a teachers base pay is a certain % (specified at time of employement usually) below the fair market housing for the area where employment takes place then the employee shall receive a marked increase in pay to equalize the cost of living within the employment area.
Am I wrong? Is this not part of the negotiations? Or Rather the stickler? If I am toatally off please let me know, I don't mind being corected, but please do keep you answers civil.

I do understand that many teachers may choose to live outside the area in which they work and must therefore voluntarily commute each day to do so. That in itself costs money for gas, as well as being difficult for young teachers who have families and must tend to their families, yet maintain the long hours often expected of teachers. Would you not expect your employers to maintain a segment of your pay to be competitive within the fair market value of other companies whose employees hold the same job description?

[Jolene]

Would you not expect your employers to maintain a segment of your pay to be competitive within the fair market value of other companies whose employees hold the same job description?

I would. The difference here is, if my company's pay was not, I would look for a different job. I actually have had the opposite problem with my job. I am actually paid fairly well for what I do and have great benefits. My co-workers, however, leave a bit to be desired. I complained about it to my husband and friends for a year before I realized that I was sounding like a broken record and no one was holding a gun to my head and forcing me to work here. So, I began looking for a different job. I continued to work here, of course, but was constantly on the lookout for different jobs.

And while I get a competetive salary for what I do, our raises are typically 2-3%. That's pretty standard for everyone in our company because we have profit-sharing. Profit-sharing means diddly, however, on the years when there's not much to share. On those years, do you think we get a higher raise, to include a COLA???? No. Our raises are actually lower because there is less money in the budget to provide for raises.

And I think this kind of thing is pretty standard and it's the point that many have been making. If it really is a matter of doing what you love or caring for your family, then that's the decision you need to make on a personal basis. I would love to stay home and write screen-plays and/or novels, but would I make enough money to contribute to my family doing that? No, I wouldn't. So, I do what pays the bills while continuing to hope for and work for something better.

Again, many here are PRO-TEACHER and I believe that those of us who are would like them to get fair pay and fair benefits. I'm not against that for anyone; however, as many have said, teachers know what they were going into when they got into the profession. Fair negotiations is something that should happen for all involved, but in the end if the result of those negotiations is not what they want to have happen, then, for pete's sake, stop banging your head against the wall. Find another avenue to improve your situation.

Again, I think that many are just against the teachers' tactics that have been mentioned in this thread.

I honestly don't believe that anyone is against the raises, or the teachers, themselves. Just the attitudes expressed and the tactics used. That's all.

[supermom]

Again, I think that many are just against the teachers' tactics that have been mentioned in this thread.

I honestly don't believe that anyone is against the raises, or the teachers, themselves. Just the attitudes expressed and the tactics used. That's all.

Yeah okay - maybe not, but they have grabbed the attention of many Folsomites who are often too preoccupied within their own lifecircle to come up for air and look around. Me I probably would have wanted to handle it differently but I think that a large group of employees working in many sites like FCUSD presents a challenge for keeping all informed and level headed during 'negotiations'. I bet there are senior personnel from both sides who probably view this thread and could see misnomers and improperly articulated facts which would be better left to more reliable (or diplomatic) sources. Because of my early rearing I will probably always champion a union over employers; but we must not forget the human side to every case. The human side to this one I truly think was an error in judgement on someones part in assuming that only the FCUSD staff would roil over fair pay.
Further, I think that the size of FCUSD presents too many challenges. FCUSD has become too spread out for there to be only one chair. The C in FCUSD needs to find its own way. The time has come.

[Cookie]

Not taking in personally at all since I AM NOT A TEACHER

I believe one person even went so far to say that when you look at teachers salaries, benefits, time off, they are actually making closer to $100,000 a year. And you call my logic hilarious? Get real DR.

Salary: $40k - $80k (for 9 months) = $53k - $106k (for 12 months)

I refer you back to back to the article that was posted earlier in the thread in case you missed it:

Pension gap divides public and private workers
http://usatoday.com/...POE=click-refer

A typical full-time state or local government worker made $78,853 in wages and benefits in the third quarter of 2006, $25,771 more than a typical private-sector worker, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports. The difference was $7,604 in 2000. The compensation advantage holds true for all types of public workers, from teachers to laborers and managers.

Pensions for civil servants often are superior to private pensions in subtle ways that make a huge financial difference. For example, government pensions:

•Generally base benefits on a worker's top three earning years. Private pensions typically base benefits on the top five years of pay, which lowers the average.

•Often let retirees add the value of overtime, unused leave and other benefits into the pension formula. The results can be extreme. Dover, N.H., Police Chief William Fenniman, 46, added more than $200,000 for severance, sick leave and other payouts into his three-year salary average when he retired in January. This will boost his retirement benefit to as much as $125,000 a year, more than he made as chief.

•Permit early retirement at age 50 or 55 with less of a benefit reduction than private pensions.

•Provide free or subsidized medical care for retirees under age 65 and supplemental coverage after that for those on Medicare.

•More often provide automatic cost-of-living increases to benefits.

[mylo]

Many of my continuing education units are only good in FCUSD. Anyway, if I went to any other district I would lost about $20,000 a year, so it's not really an option for me at this point, but thanks!

What makes your units "only good at FCUSD?"

[dan76]

Salary: $40k - $80k (for 9 months) = $53k - $106k (for 12 months)

[dan76]

Salary: $40k - $80k (for 9 months) = $53k - $106k (for 12 months)

Most teachers I know elect to get paid over 12 months, not 9. $48K a year is still just $48K a year whether you elect to take it over 10 months or 12. If you try and look at it any other way, its just fuzzy math.

[39 degrees]

If someday I decide to become a teacher, I will do so knowing what the pay and benefit structure is.

As much as I recognize the need for teachers, and as much as I value teachers, I have to say that those who become teachers know going in what the pay and benefit structure is. If the district or profession isn't paying enough, one must find a higher paying position or a different career.

Once districts start loosing teachers, they will start doing the things businesses do to attract more and better employees. They will offer better pay and benefit packages.

I know a lot of teachers. I have some in my family. I respect and admire them. I tell them, though, that they knew going in what the job entailed, and if it no longer meets their salary and benefit requirements, they should go to work for a district that pays more, or do something else for a living.

This is so true, just like our soldiers in Iraq. They knew that when they signed the dotted line, they were going to be shot.

Nice analogy. Doesn't work!