537 replies to this topic

[bordercolliefan]

Do any religons tolerate homosexuality?

Yes. The majority view of the Episcopal Church not only tolerates, but welcomes, gays. (There is a minority of congregations that has not followed the lead of the national church on this issue). You may recall the press coverage concerning the ordination of the church's first gay bishop. Also, there are numerous ordained gay and lesbian priests.

Also, the Unitarian Church welcomes gay members.

Finally, Farley recently posted a reference to a denomination that welcomes gay and lesbian members -- I believe it is the Metropolitan Community Church -- is that right, Farley??

So yes, there are churches that do the right thing on this issue.

[bordercolliefan]

See, this is the kind of thing I'm concerned about. This is from the Islamic Society of North America, which appears to be a fairly mainstream Muslim organization:

http://www.isna.net/.../dv/imamcorner/

It seems the Quran authorizes husbands to beat or "tap" their wives for disobedience -- though, the imam specifies, only on the body, not on the face.

But don't worry... these days, the imam reassures us, such "tapping" is really more of a symbolic gesture rather than one intended to cause bodily harm.

[uberman]

It is always possible that the Folsom mosque is a renegade, reform-minded group... certainly, if I were to hear Mr. Seddique and the other mosque leaders embracing equality for women and tolerance of homosexuality, I would feel a lot better about the whole thing. 

Mr. Seddique????????

That's beyond ridiculous...

So yes, there are churches that do the right thing on this issue.

Oh God... the "right thing," is to tolerate homosexuality, even though the very book they live and breathe by clearly labels it as a sin!?!?

What a load of BS.

[bordercolliefan]

Yes.  The majority view of the Episcopal Church not only tolerates, but welcomes, gays.  (There is a minority of congregations that has not followed the lead of the national church on this issue).  You may recall the press coverage concerning the ordination of the church's first gay bishop.  Also, there are numerous ordained gay and lesbian priests. 

Also, the Unitarian Church welcomes gay members. 

Finally, Farley recently posted a reference to a denomination that welcomes gay and lesbian members -- I believe it is the Metropolitan Community Church -- is that right, Farley?? 

So yes, there are churches that do the right thing on this issue.

I should clarify, though, that the reason I raised the issue of gay tolerance was NOT to argue that Christian churches are far ahead of Islam in this regard. Obviously, there are many Christian denominations that have a long way to go.

My intent was simply to point out the double standard. If Bob Jones or Jerry Falwell were coming to Folsom, we liberals would probably be picketing in the streets -- or at least we would be very dismayed. But we seem to give the Muslims a free pass. Why? Should we not decry sexism and hate-mongering wherever we see it?

[mylo]

Wow.. here I am messing around in all the other threads and everyone's in here still bickering about this mosque! I must admit the 49 For to 16 Against vote is quite shocking. I really thought the Against were in a smaller minority, or at least the "Don't care's/Not Decided" would outnumber them.

Shocking and Sad to see such intolerence of others in this town.

[ngilbert]

My intent was simply to point out the double standard.  If Bob Jones or Jerry Falwell were coming to Folsom, we liberals would probably be picketing in the streets -- or at least we would be very dismayed.  But we seem to give the Muslims a free pass.  Why?  Should we not decry sexism and hate-mongering wherever we see it?

I'm liberal and I wouldn't picket Jerry Falwell or Bob Jones - maybe because I'm a liberal (in the classic sense, not the Candace Bergen sense).

Just because they build their church here doesn't mean I'm obliged to attend. It's a free country and all. Now if they start calling for the assasination of, say, democratically-elected presidents of other countries from the pulpit (but that never happens ), or if they tried to exert political influence outside their church walls so that we non-parishoners are having to live by their church doctrine, yeah I'd have a problem with that.

Note that would be true of either a mosque or a church. Someone can build a Mayan Temple for all I care. They don't need my religious conversion or my adherence to their doctrine to build a building and as long as they observe city codes preventing human sacrifice and traffic congestion - it's their money. If everyone who wanted to build a church around here needed me to believe what they believe, well, that would be nice for me I guess (and I hereby make you all honorary bishops of the Ngilbert Church and Blessed Brew Pub- please visit our gift shop on the way out).... but pretty much only for me.

Muslim women get treated as second class citizens. Same is true of Southern Baptists. That's why I'm neither. In America you're still free not to attend a church with ideas you find objectionable.

[tessieca]

And exactly how many real concerns warrant 26 pages on an online forum? Has there been a 26 page thread about seatbelts or smoking or healthy eating somewhere that I missed?

You're just creating red herrings on this topic. Start a new one on seat belts on school busses, and I'll debate you there.

[CostcoLover]

Did someone say something about tolerance?

Christian adoption agency bars Catholic clients
Program funded in part by ‘Choose Life’ license plates cites religious conflict

JACKSON, Miss. - A Christian adoption agency that receives money from “Choose Life” license plate fees said it does not place children with Roman Catholic couples because their religion conflicts with the agency’s “Statement of Faith.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8587678/

Of course, after the story was carried the world over, they saw their own hypocrisy and relented.

http://www.worldnetd...RTICLE_ID=45389

Much like Pat Robertson's statement on assassination and then reversal to mere kidnapping.

Pat Robertson calls for assassination of Hugo Chavez
http://www.usatoday....obertson-_x.htm
VIRGINIA BEACH (AP) — Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson suggested on-air that American operatives assassinate Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez

This is God's power and he sent this thing to warn us ... we needed a shock.
-- Pat Robertson, remarking on the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, quoted by Robert E. Norlander in a dispatch of September 14, 2001

If you're Christian, go ahead, bomb an abortion clinic, Pat says it's ok.


Immunity from Prosecution: 'God Told Me to Do It'

Gerard Thomas Straub
Writer and TV Executive, former The 700 Club producer

"Here is another example of the way Robertson would mix church and state, rather than keep them separate. Let's say that a Christian thinks God is directing him or her to blow up an abortion clinic or kill a doctor who performs abortions, and this Christian does in fact commit such a crime. In a September of 1984 edition of The 700 Club, Robertson suggested that special church tribunals could be called upon to discern if a believer had in fact received an authentic word from God which compelled him to break a civil law. According to Robertson, if this church tribunal did determine the believer had in fact received an authentic message from God -- how they could reach this conclusion without issuing God a suboena wasn't made clear -- then, Robertson said, the church tribunal would have the civil authority to provide the believer with immunity from prosecution."

-- Gerard Thomas Straub, speech before the San Fernando Valley Chapter of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, September 11, 1995, quoted from Harry Schwartzbart, "Pat Robertson Proposes Immunity From Prosecution For Criminals Who Commit Crimes On Instructions From God"

Christian Pat on a woman's place....

Woman Must Submit to Husband. Period. ...

God's pattern is for men to be the leaders, both in the church and in the family... "Women should listen and learn quietly and submissively. I do not let women teach men or have authority over them."
-- Pat Robertson, reciting a passage from I Timothy in his book, Bring It On, quoted from Nicholas D. Kristof, "Peter, Paul, Mary ... and God" (The New York Times: February 28, 2004) ††

I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period.
-- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club television program, January 8, 1992

Enjoy the whole collection here...

http://www.positivea...otes/revpat.htm

But lets not pick on Pat.... lets look at A&E's piece on Christian pedophiles

http://www.skeptictank.org/cabuse1.htm

400 clergy-related sexual abuse cases were reported in 1982 with a recorded $400 million in just the Catholic's legal and medical fees -- most cases handled out of court in rewards and damages to the victim and the victims parents. Yet Catholic clergy is only part of the problem. All told, there were over 200,000 cases of clergy abuse (counting all Christian sects) every year in the last few years -- a number which is still growing.

In the Catholic brand priesthood, there is reported something around 53,000 priests in the United States. Though the report stayed mostly within the Catholic sect, A&E wanted it to be very clear that this is a problem which affects all Christian churches everywhere.

Oh wait, I know what you're going to say... he's just a Christian radical.... and some Christians are not perfect... and that's it's just 2% of Christians that hold these beliefs... and that 98% of Christians are just peace loving worshippers... my... where have I heard that before?

[bishmasterb]

Oh wait, I know what you're going to say... he's just a Christian radical.... and some Christians are not perfect...  and that's it's just 2% of Christians that hold these beliefs... and that 98% of Christians are just peace loving worshippers... my... where have I heard that before?

[bordercolliefan]

Nope, what I'm going to say (and what I have said on this forum many times) is that those beliefs are wrong, sexist, and hateful, and that we as a community ought to be united in our denunciation of them.

I like to be consistent in my analysis of others' beliefs. I don't give anyone a free pass.

[CostcoLover]

Excellent. I can't wait for the 27 page thread on the building of the next Christian church in Folsom.

[Chad Vander Veen]

Excellent.  I can't wait for the 27 page thread on the building of the next Christian church in Folsom. 

It must suck going thru life hating Christians so much, CostcoLover.

BTW, where does this idea that Chrisitans must tolerate everything come from? That is exactly the opposite of what God calls Chrisitans to do.

[bishmasterb]

BTW, where does this idea that Chrisitans must tolerate everything come from? That is exactly the opposite of what God calls Chrisitans to do.

Really?

Aren't Christians supposed to model their lives off of Christ's?

Christ seemed to tolerate quite a bit: taxes, a foreign military occupation of his homeland, sinners, prostitutes, tax collectors, murderers and thieves. He tolerated his father turning his back on him at the crucifixion. He tolerated being hated, despised, tortured, when he had the power to stop them. His life seemed to have been a huge lesson in tolerance.

He didn't tolerate the moneychangers in church, but there's not much else I can think of that he didn't just quietly put up with.

[Chad Vander Veen]

Really?

Aren't Christians supposed to model their lives off of Christ's?

Christ seemed to tolerate quite a bit: taxes, a foreign military occupation of his homeland, sinners, prostitutes, tax collectors, murderers and thieves. He tolerated his father turning his back on him at the crucifixion. He tolerated being hated, despised, tortured, when he had the power to stop them. His life seemed to have been a huge lesson in tolerance.

He didn't tolerate the moneychangers in church, but there's not much else I can think of that he didn't just quietly put up with.

That's entirely untrue. During hisministry, Christ tranformed people into his followers, he didn't just tolerate them. He changed them. Which is why he calls on Christians to "go and make disciples of all nations", not just "sit around and accept the status quo".

[CostcoLover]

It must suck going thru life hating Christians so much, CostcoLover.

Who said I hated Christians? I no more hate Christians than Satanists or any other religion.