109 replies to this topic

[cybertrano]

QUOTE (OctoberLily @ Nov 22 2002, 01:43 PM)

[QUOTE=April,Nov 11 2002, 01:45 AM]"Most professional people put in a lot of overtime...much more than most workers.  I know for a fact that the employees at Intel work more hours than most people WOULD work! Even if they could! That place is open for workers, 24/7!  An 8 hour day is not the common work hours for those who own a business or work at one of the high tech companies.   ..................

I appreciate the opportunity to hear from another perspective. Good point.

[Steve]

QUOTE (OctoberLily @ Nov 22 2002, 01:43 PM)

QUOTE (April @ Nov 11 2002, 01:45 AM) "Most professional people put in a lot of overtime...much more than most workers.  I know for a fact that the employees at Intel work more hours than most people WOULD work! Even if they could! That place is open for workers, 24/7!  An 8 hour day is not the common work hours for those who own a business or work at one of the high tech companies.   So while the low income families will be able to live and work here right along side of us, WE won't be able to have the leizure time to spend with our families that they do!  Is THIS the American Dream, or the American Nightmare?  I always thought that the people who put forth the most effort and was the most responsible, got the biggest pay check, house, car and lived in a better neighorhood.  But this gives very little incentive to our children to do the things we did, ( like go to college and save money ), when they see that the low income can move right next door! I've found that most of the people who would like to move into these Low Income Houses have very little respect for the many years of education and hard work it takes to acquire these high paying jobs, to pay for the houses we live in.  It's like they think our "Daddies" bought the house for us or something!  They feel a sense of entitlement, that I personally can not identify with.   I'm also amazed that this so called "Law" is in effect.  Where is this law, and why can't we read it?  Our leaders come along and told us about it, but didn't bother to print it out and place it on any web site that I know of.  We are supposed to be content to allow them to explain it to us, in their words only.  How very convenient for them. The food locker and the soup kitchen may not be as full this Christmas, as it has in the past.  I'm sure thousands of people are pretty mad about this situation of the state making us home owners lose thousands in our property values.  Because, it seems this is happening all over California. Many, including my husband and I have lost thousands of dollars in the stocks that were going to be our retirement.  Now we are facing the loss of much of our home value too. April, Although, I respect your opinions, I find most, if not all of them, extremely shallow, self serving and borderline elitist. I do not know where you came from before you moved to Folsom (I'm guessing somewhere close to the Silicon Valley or the Bay area) but your statements are a SLAP TO THE FACE TO ALL RESIDENTS OF FOLSOM that lived here BEFORE Intel, Powerschool and other high tech companies moved here. This was a quiet town with lots of open space. A lot of the families were employed at Folsom Prison. Many of the people that worked in Folsom were able to purchase a home and live in Folsom. That all changed though as it did for San Jose and the East Bay. High Tech Companies were moving in and growing. Property Owners saw the value of catering to high tech professionals making a great deal of money than to those already living in their units. Therefore, Prices of rental units and homes started to go way up. People were getting shoved out of their homes (rental units) with the constantly increasing rents. I have many friends who had to move out of the Bay area because their rents were increasing every 6 months up to $200.00 or more. The developers in Folsom do not cater to people making an "average" wage. They cater to people like you who make an income above the average worker in California. They would rather sell a small home with no yard for $300K and up to people like you moving into Folsom then to build a small home with no yard for $180K to people who have worked here for 20 years. You generalize "low income" workers as not appreciating the value of an education, saving money and working hard to accomplish what you have. You fail to recognize that people who ARE educated and who work in a certain field (TEACHERS, POLICE, FIRE FIGHTERS) are NOT OFFERED the same salary as people working in the high tech professions. I bet you you enjoy the hard work these people (Teachers, Police Officers and Fire Fighters) do and don't complain much about the service these people provide to all of us. Even if they don't work as much overtime as your typical high tech professional who you allege work 24/7. Now, I know this is a general statement because my husband works for the high tech industry and so does a lot of his friends. Although they get called in every now and then at all hours of the day and night, I can honestly say that they DON'T work as hard as you allege. They were only fortunate to have a foot in the door to an industry that is making billions and able to offer high paying positions. You also seem to forget that before people like you moved in, Folsom was affordable to live in. I guess you wouldn't know that or maybe you did and that's why you moved here. You blame the poor and single mothers for everything from losing money on your stocks to allegedly lowering your property values. Now, you drop threats of "the food locker and the soup kitchen may not be as full this Christmas as it has in the past." People who give at the food locker and soup kitchens do so from the heart, not because their property values and stocks are up. I feel sorry for the day you and your husband are laid off from your high tech jobs. Read the papers. Intel stocks are not the only stocks going down. Maybe that is what it will take for you to see what it truly is like to step in the shoes of someone making an average wage. People are not born with empathy and compassion for others it is a learned behavoir and you certainly need to learn that "having a bigger home, nicer car, better education, good job, high paying income" does not make you a better person.

Oh Pleeeeezzzzzzzz ....

"Octoberlily's" views are typical of the liberals who are trying to run this State into the socialistic ground and attempt to make those of us who have worked hard, taken risks, and earned the right to a few material things feel guilty. I for one don't buy their "bunk".

I didn't relocate from the Bay area and I lost my job twice in the early 90's because of the recession. However; I learned from that experience and worked hard and long hours to become a self-employed person. Before moving to Folsom just a few years ago I lived in an area in Southern California where I could hear gun shots at night. So ... I didn't bring a lot of money from home equity with me when I bought my home in Folsom. I also don't have an advanced degree. I didn't expect the Government, developers, or new home buyers (through add-on fees) to subsidize me to live in Folsom.

"Affordable Housing" is all about subsidizing those who can't afford to live in a particular area ... and that is wrong and a "slap in the face" to all people who work hard, take risks, and prioritize their spending to afford to live where they desire. Contrary to what the "Octoberlilys" of this country would like ... this country is not a socialistic country. Look around the world and there's lots of evidence around that shows how socialistic thinking destroys a country.

Yes ... I am in the top 3% of income earners in this country because of my hard work and risk taking. I do not apologize or feel guilty for that. I pay more taxes than the average working person and draw very little from society (no kids who require public education, libraries, etc.). I give much more to charity than most.

So .. in spite of what "Octoberlily" says ... I have a bigger home, nicer car(s), good education, great career, high paying income as well as being a better person than most ... and I'm proud and happy with myself.

[NRB]

If being commpassionate towards our fellow man makes us liberal...than we are guilty as charged! By this definition, Jesus and Mother Teresa were liberals as well. Afterall, they gave of themselves in service to the poor and downtrodden and cared not for the value of their property but for the good of mankind! Not bad company we liberals keep! Don't get me wrong, I love my nice home and my husbands high tech income and I am not thrilled with being saddled with more than our share of affordable housing. But the day I care more for material things than I do for my "neighbor" is the day I have failed as a parent. Because without kindness and decency what kind of world will I be leaving for my children?

[April]

Thank you Steve; very well said!
Now, I’d like to address some comments with some good old fashioned straight talk.

Where I am from is none of anybody’s business, and to try and guess about my position,
employment or otherwise, is not germane to the issues. I pay my own way, and that is
what really matters. Although, I thought it was humorous being accused of having an
“Elitist Attitude”, by OctoberLily, when I still buy most my clothes at Wal Mart! ha!ha!
I don’t have what you would call a big house and my car is a compact, cheapo. But I still
don’t feel I should have to live next door to someone who has had the same opportunities
in America I’ve had, but didn’t take advantage of them to get better employment. One
does not have to be making a high income to feel it is unfair for this low income housing
to be next door to them.
Let’s talk some reality.......
The fact is, our whole employment scene has changed from a manufacturing and
producing country, to a service and high tech industry country.
Many of the jobs that had unions and paid pretty well in the past, have gone south of the
border or over to China. So there are far fewer of those types of jobs that pay what they
used to, due to the importing of manufacturing and the robotics now used in these types of
jobs. Labor jobs will not pay enough any more to support a family.
Also, there are far more immigrants here in California, who will work for cheaper wages
and feel comfortable with that, so they compete with the other workers who were born
here. This is not a judgment, it’s just a fact. If anyone doubts it, they should go talk to
someone who was born here and works in one of the Nursing Homes. I personally know
of one of these people and they say they have far too heavy a patient load, to give them
the care they need, plus the wages and benefits are terrible. Many of the health care workers there are from other countries and will not stand up to management and demand better wages. So if one wants to have a
decent standard of living these days, one MUST go to college and get a degree in the high
tech field, or go into business themselves. It’s a new world folks! Look around! Every
time you turn on the TV you hear about the latest technical advances. The world is
moving forward at a very fast clip and a lot of people in this country are not keeping up.

Now, about the prices of houses here.......I did not personally raise the prices of the homes
in Folsom and if anyone is to blame for that it’s the developers! After all, who decides
what a new home will cost???
Certainly not me!!!! Certainly not the people who would like to buy a home!!!!
And if there is to be blaming for all the new houses build here it should be laid at the door
step of the old Folsom residents! Where were THEY when the city council approved all
this new house construction? Were they not the people who were voting for the local
government at that time????? The people they are blaming for moving here certainly
didn’t vote for those city council members that approved high mass housing and fast
growth! To lay blame and bash the new comers of Folsom, is really immature and shows
ignorance of how the government system works. People who moved recently to Folsom
certainly didn’t think doing so, would be viewed by the old Folsomites as a bad thing!
I’m sure that the new comers pay a lot more property tax than the old Folsomites too!
So I think they have a right to live where they want if they can pay their own way!

But we are talking about those who can not pay their own way. I would be very
interested, at how many Firemen and Policemen actually choose to move into one of those
low income homes or apartments. This is a nation of the two income family.
How many people do you know where the wife stays home with the kids? We had a
police officer living right next door to us and his wife worked at a beauty salon. Together,
they made a very nice income, they must have because they bought a new house right next
to ours. We also know a guard who works at the Prison...he and his wife have a brand
new home in Antelope, Oh boo-hoo....those poor people! They bought a brand new
house that cost them over $200,000! This doesn’t sound bad to me! ( The fact is, all the
houses in the Sacramento area have gone up in prices proportionately. It’s not just in
Folsom!)
I personally know of a disabled police officer that would love to move into one of those
low income homes and he would qualify, but I doubt he will be considered, as they want
“Families” and he is single. This is the problem I have with this deal.
It would be FINE with me if the low income homes went in, but were limited to the retired
and the disabled. We simply do not do enough for theses folks in our country.
(Do I still sound like an Elitist?)
But the Social Services Department has tunnel vision in this matter and will consider a
single mother before they consider others, and this is a fact that can be proven.
I have not “blamed everything on single mothers” either. I know of a few myself, but they
don’t seem to have a problem with their income as they have college degrees.

I think it is time for some folks to wake up and smell the coffee! We currently are having
Welfare Reform in California and the Social Service Dept. is having a heck of a time trying
to place uneducated, inexperienced people into jobs that will totally support them and their
family. Billions of tax dollars have been spent educating, housing and supporting these
people, sometimes for decades. Now we are being asked to pay for their living in a high
income community, right next door to us.
I know many who would love THAT DEAL!!!!
Free housing and support while you go to school and live in Folsom!!!!!?????!!!!
Gee, some of us have “Black Sheep” in our families who never did the right things to
improve their lives, maybe we should inform them about this deal!!!! Maybe this is the
reason the rest of us are being bashed. It sounds to me like some have people in their
families that want to live in these low income homes!

How many of you out there went to college the hard way? Saved every penny to buy
books and register, took out grant money that you are still paying back and worked two
jobs paying minimum wage to pay for it all? And how many have moved up to homes
they have waited years to be able to afford? What are YOUR rights? You and I are
paying the big income taxes, and property taxes, and now the “Thanks” we get, is to play
“Be a good Citizen and have your property values go down!”
This is really what people are mad about. It’s just unfair any way you look at it.
But the fact is, the Welfare Dept. can not pay the rents for the people now on Welfare and
want to get cheaper places for them to live. I think these people will have first choice of
the low income housing. They will cry discrimination if they don’t, and will be considered
“Low Income” by those taking the applications. There is nowhere that I’ve read these
housing units will be for only those who have employment, not supplemented by Welfare
checks.
Some of those kids you and I knew in high school, that dropped out, will be living over in
the low income houses and apartments.....you wait and see. They dropped out of high
school, had 2 or 3 children by the time they were 19 years old, got on welfare, and now
they get to move right next door to you!!!!!! Some of these single mothers never even
bothered to get married! Many cannot tell you who the fathers of their children are!
Or maybe some will be the immigrants that can not speak or write English, who came over
here from Russia, or some other country, with 4 or 5 kids. They too have been living on
welfare and are getting free education, health care, and total support from OUR tax
dollars. But THAT is not enough, for the bleeding heart liberals, is it?
No, they want them to be right over here in our back yards, going to our schools, which
we are still paying for with bonds, playing at our parks, which we are still trying to get and
pay for, and cashing their food stamps at our local grocery stores.
What a deal!!!!!!
But few tell it like it is on this message board. Because it’s not “Politically Correct” and
we are more inclined to go along with the program when it’s painted as a pretty picture
with a warm fuzzy feeling to it.
If blame is to be placed, go to the source! Don’t bash hard working people who have
sacrificed for what they have, because they ARE NOT TO BLAME!
And I’ll tell you what...........if all the new comers had not moved in, there still would be
low income housing going into Folsom!! The cities are spreading the poor around
because down town Sacramento and other big cities don’t want to deal with all the back
lash of their own policies and laws. They are importing the problem to other communities
so the cities will look better to tourists. For years Sacramento has tried to deal with the
homeless and the Welfare residents that don’t add to the county tax and who are breaking
laws and in general, driving away business. Sacramento wants to be another San
Francisco, and have the billions of dollars from tourist that it does, but they can’t with the
current thousands of homeless down town.
The County of Sacramento has a plan, and that plan is to share the burden of the problems
they have created, by the liberal politicians who have been elected. They will call it many
pretty names and say it’s for many different reasons, but some of us know the truth.
So don’t be surprised if you see a homeless man walking down your street soon or
panhandling in the grocery store parking lot. They are going to build a homeless shelter in
Folsom too......maybe right next to you! And those people will not stay in that shelter 24
hours a day! Now doesn’t that make you feel warm and fuzzy!!!!
The good people who put the homeless shelter in old town Roseville were only trying to help the down trodden too. But they put some people out of business when the homeless started urinating in the door ways of stores and shops, and panhandled customers and drove them off. When asked to shut the homeless shelter down, they fought and kept it open. They never had any concerns for where the families of these closed businesses would get thier food, or the money to pay their house payments and rents.
Their kind of help. helped ruin the entire old town of Roseville!
People have a right in this country to work and make a living, but those who are trying to be in good standing with God, will take that right away, if it interfers with their helping what they call the down trodden.
Never mind that many of these down trodden people would not ever work, if given the chance. Their whole attitude is to live off the charity of those who will give it. What ever happened to, "Give a hand, not a handout"?
But the fact is, no body is taking names or keeping track of many of those who are taking the handouts. Did anyone read where one State Social Service Dept. couldn't even keep track of the children placed in foster homes? Shelters should know who they are helping and require some fingerprints. Then they could see who comes back year after year.
But I doubt they really care enough to do that. They don't think it matters that some homeless are lifers to that way of life, and a burden to the tax payers. Who do you think pays for their medical bills when they need to go into the hospital? We do.
Seems to me, the taxes we are already paying are being wasted, but they still want more! No one seems to care about the working class anymore.

[OctoberLily]

QUOTE (April @ Nov 23 2002, 05:40 PM)

I still don’t feel I should have to live next door to someone who has had the same opportunities in America I’ve had, but didn’t take advantage of them to get better employment.   Also, there are far more immigrants here in California, who will work for cheaper wages and feel comfortable with that, so they compete with the other workers who were born here.   So if one wants to have a decent standard of living these days, one MUST go to college and get a degree in the high tech field, or go into business themselves. And if there is to be blaming for all the new houses build here it should be laid at the door step of the old Folsom residents! Now we are being asked to pay for their living in a high income community, right next door to us. I know many who would love THAT  DEAL!!!! It sounds to me like some have people in their families that want to live in these low income homes! Some of those kids you and I knew in high school, that dropped out, will be living over in the low income houses and apartments.....you wait and see.  They dropped out of high school, had 2 or 3 children by the time they were 19 years old, got on welfare, and now they get to move right next door to you!!!!!! Some of these single mothers never even bothered to get married!  Many cannot tell you who the fathers of their children are! Or maybe some will be the immigrants that can not speak or write English, who came over here from Russia, or some other country, with 4 or 5 kids.   No, they want them to be right over here in our back yards, going to our schools, which we are still paying for with bonds, playing at our parks, which we are still trying to get and pay for, and cashing their food stamps at our local grocery stores. What a deal!!!!!! So don’t be surprised if you see a homeless man walking down your street soon or panhandling in the grocery store parking lot.   People have a right in this country to work and make a living, but those who are trying to be in good standing with God, will take that right away, if it interfers with their helping what they call the down trodden. . . .some homeless are lifers to that way of life, and a burden to the tax payers.  Who do you think pays for their medical bills when they need to go into the hospital? We do. Seems to me, the taxes we are already paying are being wasted, but they still want more!  No one seems to care about the working class anymore.

Your message says a lot about you as a human being.

"Those who are trying to be in good standing with God, will take that right away, if it interfers with their helping what they call the down trodden."

Your messages are filled with HATE. Not just for the poor but those who believe in Gods message to help those in need.

You and Steve like to classify people like me as "bleeding heart liberals" when, in fact, I'm as conservative as you get.

Even with my conservative background, I continue to believe in helping those in need whether they are homeless, single mothers, "people from Russia with 4 or 5 kids", immigrants or people like you - the working class.

Your kind of hate is the reason our country is getting bombed and being terrorized.

Your kind of hatred for the poor and down trodden is the reason so many people from other countries hate Americans because they see us getting fatter and fatter by the decade while there are hundreds of thousands of people dying from lack of food. They see our homes getting bigger and bigger while they live in dirt shacks and metal pieces. To make matters worse, we "help" other countries with their "problems" by sending U.S. made missiles and bombs. We are sending the wrong message not just to other countries but to our own children.

If we continue this path, our children will learn to HATE the poor whether they are here in the U.S. or other countries.

What kind of world do you think you will create by teaching your children to hate and lay blame all the problems of mankind on the feet of the poor, the needy and the down trodden?

Your hatred for the down trodden, poor, single mothers, and immigrants shows us only that you have placed the importance of $$$$$$$$$ before human life.

I agree that people who are given opportunities should take them to better themselves and their families. I've tried to do that with many single mothers I knew who clearly needed direction.

However, it is wrong to "BLAME" them for their position in life. Instead of whining and crying about the state of our country, why don't YOU step out of your home, stop watching Maury Povich or Jenny Jones and help those who truly need your help.

Our job on this earth is to help one another - not lay blame or judge those who are not your equals.

When you die, you will not be judged for the size of your stock portfolio, your educational degrees, your large homes or nice cars, or for how much money you have stashed in your bank account.

You will be judged for your kindness, compassion, and love for mankind.

[April]

OctoberLily,

I just knew you would come back with this kind of message.
How old are you? Thirty something? Because I think by the way you are speaking, you
haven’t been around as long as I have.

I grew up poor, in the 50’s. I came to California when I was 10 years old with a little
brother and two parents who didn’t have education. We ate fried potatoes and beans for
two weeks, until we got some food from family members. Until then, there was no milk,
no bread, no nothing except beans and potatoes. And man, were we grateful to even have
that! We had no TV, toys or games to play with. My parents came out here with nothing
but the clothes on our backs.
My mother was a waitress and my father worked at the Rail Road Yard in Roseville.
We all lived in a 3 room apartment, and my brother and I slept on the floor on a cot in the
living room. That apartment was on Marysville Blvd., here in Sacramento.
For years my mother bought my school clothes at the Good Will store. At 13, I had my
first visit to the dentist and he had to pull two of my molar teeth....my permanent teeth.
That is the only time I got to go to the dentist while growing up. My parents would not
let me have a bike, even though someone gave it to me, because I might fall and break a
leg, and they did not have the money to pay the doctor bills.

After my mother got tired of working so hard, for so little pay, she decided to get
educated and get a better job. At 13 I had to take care of my little brother, clean house
and do all the laundry, so she could study. After learning to type and getting her high
school diploma, she got a job with the State of California. Shortly after that, my father
became disabled and could not work. So on her income alone, we had to make many
sacrifices. One of them being my Junior Prom, because we couldn’t afford to buy me a
dress, so I couldn’t go. My girlfriend told my mother she could loan me a dress to wear
that belonged to her big sister, but my mother said no. She told my girlfriend that we
didn’t accept charity and that we were not poor. My mother was 100% Irish and as
stubborn as they come. She said that it was not something I had to go to anyway, and I
was not going to get a better grade if I went, so what good was it?
I cried all night long.
I didn’t understand why we had to be so proud, when it hurt me so much. And I promised
myself I would never be poor when I grew up. I saw others have good lives and those
people had education. I promised myself that I’d get a good education and be able to
stand tall, not having to go without or be envious of what others could eat or wear.

Yes, I have hate in my messages. I’ve worked all my life, and seen a lot of my tax dollars
go to those who could very well work, but will not. They feel entitled to get a free living
and have lived for decades on Welfare. I had a neighbor on Welfare once tell me I was a
bad mother because I worked instead of staying at home with my child, like she did.
She too, told me money was not the most important thing in life and people mattered
more. But as I agreed with her, I could not afford to stay home and still pay my rent.
What I didn’t agree with was her idea that the government owed her a living. She seemed
to think that check from Welfare came from some magic place in never never land, instead
of out of the working peoples pockets, through their tax dollars. She was my friend, but
we had totally different ideas about life.
I lived among what you would call the poor and had them laugh and call me stupid for
working, when I could have gotten on Welfare. They told me they had just as good a life
as they would have if they worked. I called those people lazy...they were not truly poor.
I wanted more and I was willing to work hard for it.

What is your definition of poor????? Those who can not work, or those who WILL NOT
work. Those who can not be educated, or those WHO WILL NOT TRY TO BE
EDUCATED?

Yes, there is hate in my messages, because I hate the way a lot of the people in American
have lost the work ethic that made this country strong enough to endure two world wars.
And strong enough to be in the shape it’s in after only 226 years of being a country.
The so called poor in this country don’t know the meaning of the word! If they traveled
and saw how people in other countries live, they would kiss the earth when they came
back here.
The poor in other countries don’t have something we have here. And that is FREEDOM
to get educated and freedom to work a job they want. In their countries education is only
for the rich and they can not get educated. Many people abuse this freedom in our
country and I hate it!

Yes, I have hate in my messages.....I worked for 15 years with the County Welfare Dept.
and saw and heard things you would not believe. Men living off women’s Welfare grants
and dealing drugs. Children being put into prostitution with their mothers taking their
money to buy drugs. And the worse, little babies that were so abused, we didn’t think
they would live long enough to make it to the hospital.
I had men threaten me and my family if they didn’t get their Welfare checks increased.
They told me they would follow me home to find out where I lived, then come at night
and break in and kill me and my family. I believed them too, because they were drug
dealers.
If you need to feel so much pity, feel it for the social workers who have to deal on a daily
basis with the scum that call themselves “POOR”.
Yes, there were people that were truly poor and they were also truly honorable. They
touched my heart with the way they took pride in their going back to high school to get
their diplomas and then tackled college. No one had to suggest to them that they do it
either. But those who were difficult cases we gave to Grace. She was in a wheel chair
from an auto accident and would challenge Welfare recipients to work, just as she did.
She had one woman tell her that she was maybe not as smart as she was.....can you believe
that? People will even say they are below an average intelligence to get a handout!!!
I was very angered that the Welfare Dept. did not do more at that time to empower people
to support themselves, instead of just giving them checks and food stamps.

I felt they should have made them go to school back then. You are not the first person
who has thought my ideas to be hateful. But if that is hate, to want to see people do the
best they can possibly do for themselves, then yes, I AM HATEFUL!

After 15 years of that kind of work, my mental being was so bad, my husband feared for
my sanity, so I took a leave and went to college to get a better job. We had to cut back
on things and gave up a few vacations but we managed. I had fears that I was too old to
succeed, and worried I would fail. But I could not afford to fail, so I didn’t. Afterwards I
put in many applications, only to be turned down. But I finally got a job and I like it.
It pays enough, but isn’t best paying job out there. So I think I’ll see about going to get
some more classes and see what I can do.
Maybe YOU should too!

My husband and I have not got long to make up for lost investments and we are trying to
save every penny we can so we will be able to afford the medicines we might need when
we retire. Did you know that Medicare does not pay for them? I hear how the retired
people have such a problem making ends meet, and I worry a lot that we will too.
You know, when you retire, it’s a fixed income for the rest of your life.
But you probably aren’t worried about your retirement, are you?
Well, you should be, and I hope you are saving money because you’ll get there far faster
than you think.
I wouldn’t be against working at WalMart if I had to, after I retire. Or doing something
else to make ends meet.

And to that very “HATEFUL’ comment about me watching Maury Povich or Jenny
Jones......I’m sure you know more about those shows than I do. I don’t get much of a
chance to watch those “Soaps” and only watch TV in the daytime when I’m home sick
with a cold or something. But I noticed you posted this morning at 11:04 am, so you
probably do not work and have much more time than I do to see those shows.
I’d get into big trouble with my boss if I was on the Internet at work!

Yes, OctoberLily, my messages ARE full of “HATE”.
Hate for the lazy in this world who only want to live off the rest of us.
And unlike yourself, I do not feel they are Godly.
As I said in one of my other messages, that you probably did not read, I wouldn’t care if
they put those low income houses in “if they went only to the retired people and the
disabled”. But I guess you don’t have any pity for those people, now do you?
We will see how many of those people get to have those homes.

If you really want to send a lesson to your kids about what a great parent you are, tell
them you all will give up having Christmas this year so you can spend the money to feed
the homeless!
But I’m sure you are much more talk than you are action.
I think you should practice what you preach and let the rest of mankind do what they will.
Or are you a minister or something, trying to save the world????

But you know what I really hate? People like you who would throw all the people who
claim they are poor into one basket.
They do not stop to ask if these people can see, walk, talk, or if they have enough sense to
come in out of the rain.

You sound like you are one of the spoiled young people of todays world that has had it
good all your life and now feel guilty about it, so try to spread that guilt to the rest of us!
Nobody can talk about the poor with any knowledge unless they have been there,
and I HAVE.
I was just lucky enough to have parents that were from the old school and believed in
taking care of themselves, unless they were on their death beds.

If my husband and I retire and California is too expensive for us, we will not sue the city
and we won’t whine about it. We will just move someplace that we can afford.

I do not intend to answer any more of your posts and would appreciate it if we did not
communicate further. I don’t see the point in it.

Now, as Dr. Laura would say, “Go take on the day!”

[john]

April, it sounds as though you are more at odds with the current state of the welfare system than anything else. So am I. People end up on welfare for whatever reason and it becomes a lifetime career, since they don't have to do anything once they're on it. It breeds complacency.

I think President Bush should think about some serious welfare reform - and impose limits on how long people should be on it (within reason). Most people on welfare don't look for a job because they don't have to. It's like they're part of some club - once they're in, they don't have to do anything else.

I think the federal govornment is incredibly bloated as it stands. Hopefully with some Republicans running things, we can start trimming the fat.

[April]

John, you are absolutely right!
AND, in my opinion, the low income housing does the same thing, by making those who
could get more education and increase their incomes, instead, get comfortable thinking
there will always be help from the government to give them affordable housing.

(Fraud was a big problem in working for the Welfare Dept. too. Many of us knew which
families were lying about their income but couldn’t prove it. Thus, the myth about the
Welfare man driving a Cadillac. Well, that “Myth” is not too far off the mark! But they
don’t drive those cars to the Welfare office. They are very good to keeping their “Poor
Profile”, while having the nicer things of life.)

I have some inlaws that raised 5 children in the projects, but didn’t have to. This was
down in So. Calif.
At first they had a real need, but then they both got better jobs.
The father worked for the city and then the mother starting working for the school district.
I don’t think the housing authority didn’t require a reporting of income on an annual basis,
so they were able to increase their income on the sly. It was a case of someone in that
system not doing their job, that allowed them to live there even though they didn't need to.

They lived in these projects until they were forcibly put out by the county.
Although their daughter had moved out, the sons kept living at home, because it was easy
and they were not very motivated to work. ( Little wonder with the surrounding neighbors
not working either.)
The county had finally received a notice from someone that this family was in breach of
the rules which said no family could have more than two adults in it.
When they moved out their oldest son was 22. So they had been living there against the
rules for four years.

One concern for many is that these low income properties will give some an unfair
advantage, has they can get larger incomes, still live in the low income home and be able
advance their standard of living above the range for low income status, without stepping
aside and allowing another low income family from getting the break they did.

Another is that the family will have more children, and live in a home that has only two
bedrooms, while having say, four children. This is what happened to my in laws.
They started out having three children when they moved into the projects, then had two
more, but didn’t have any more room.

Amazingly, this family had received help from a family member before hand, who owned a
business and had hired them to work for him. They lived with him and his wife. It seemed
they felt they didn’t have to view that employment as “REAL” because they didn’t arrive
at work on time and were lax in their attitude about their work. The helpful relative
became impatient with their attitudes and kicked them out. Later, it was discovered the
man had a drinking trouble, and that dipped into their budget, which had a two fold
consequence.
The first being unable to hold a job and the second being unable to support his family.

Some don’t want to hear this, but often there are reasons a person has not been able to
work at a job that will support him and his family, and too many of them are alcohol and
drugs.

It’s sad, but the fact is our government has tried to be like these relatives in helping the
low income with support and low rent housing, but their record shows they have failed
everytime. Most people don’t want to hear this, but it is fact.

Also, our government actually allows conditions to develop that hurt our low income
population. Like with allowing Corporations to take their manufacturing over seas and
taking jobs that our people could be working at, and allowing the immigration to get out
of hand, thus more people here, but no increase in jobs.
My co-worked told me they just got the figure of 3 million immigrates, both legal and illegal, coming into the
country in the last 6 months, making our total 33 million immigrates in this country now.
This impacts our economy and our stresses our housing.
I mean imagine your wife telling you that her relatives were going to come live with you
and you have only 2 bedrooms! Where would you put all these people and how would
you feed them?
But these things are not politically correct to discuss, accept by our government behind
closed doors.
For those who are interested to know how our very own government caused the
conditions we have today, go to this web site and read “How the Government Killed
Affordable Housing”.

http://www.spoa.com/pages/govkill.html

It’s been an issue almost since this nation was founded.
But the government never ceases to feel they can cure the ills of society, by stepping in
and making new laws.
This takes the incentive from those who might pull themselves up by their boot straps, and
seeking more training or education that would enable them to afford better lives.
Well, lunch is about over so fare well!

[tony]

Jake:

You don't give yourself enough credit. There are many things you and the rest of us who live in the smoggy Sacramento valley can do to improve the air quality, besides leaving: drive less, buy a fuel-efficient car, don't use your wood-burning fireplace, replace your gas lawn mower with an electric one, ride a bike to work, take public transportation, use your air conditioner less, buy all-renewable electricity from SMUD, don't cook on a charcoal grille, use a broom instead of a leaf blower, support legislation for cleaner-burning deisel trucks and buses, put your kids on the bus to school instead of driving them, consolidate trips, car pool. It's only your health that depends on it...and mine! As the American Lung Association motto so poignantly puts it: "If you can't breathe, nothing else matters."

[Cloud9]

Good thread! Thumbs up to April, Steve, Cyber, John

OctoberLily, NRB, you heart may be in the right place, but the approach is difficult to justify at best.

Generosity is a personal choice and should come from individuals, not government. That's what makes Jesus and Mother Teresa great, they believed in the public good and made the personal sacrifices.

I'd find it hard to believe that our founding fathers intended for some Americans to work hard and other Americans live off them, when they set out to build this country.

This is a competitive, capitalist, free, democratic society. No one is forced to be a Police Officer, Firefighter, Teacher, or Social Worker. Those are personal choices, and I don't believe people make those career choices with their eyes closed.

My sister is a teacher, her husband is a police officer, they knew what the wages were when they got into their respective professions, and combined they make more than I do, and now live in a home worth $865k in Southern California, but when they first started, they couldn't afford the nice neighborhoods, so they sacrificed as well.

Noone is entitled to a "free ride" in America.
Noone is entitled to a "subsidized" ride in America.
Noone is forced into their chosen professions in America.
Noone is forced to have 4-5 kids (or whatever number is unaffordable for them) in America

This is not about God, self-righteousness, terrorism, hatred, etc... it's about the basic philosophy of what it means to live in a free, competitive, capitalist, democratic society.


By all means, you should have the right to be generous if you want to be.... with your money, not taxpayer dollars.

Anyone who has relatives in social work, police, fire, military, education, etc. is well aware of the enormous waste, fraud, mismanagement and inefficiency. It is inappropriate to ask the hard working American taxpayer to not only continue to subsidize the governme waste, but to involuntarily participate in a grand social engineering experiment.

This is a competitive, capitalist, free, democratic society that is ever changing. When you have an opportunity you seize it - and many people in Folsom that have been here a long time did that, they bought when prices were under $200k. The folks that were here had that same choice, they chose to pass up the opportunity.

Families that have been here long before the rest of us got here, don't have any more rights than we do. That's just the way it is in a free, competitive, capitalist, democratic society.

The tax system was put into place for basic services - national defense, police, fire, etc. It wasn't put in place to reengineer a democratic philosophy into a socialist philosophy.

The wealthy give away billions, they don't have to, but they do. If you really believed in helping the poor, you'd focus on helping them find a way to help themselves (teach a man to fish vs. giving them the fish).

I find that many of the people that believe in these affordable housing programs are 'generous' when it comes to tax dollars that aren't theirs. Yes, you contribute to the tax kitty, but you should always keep in mind that others do as well.

Tax dollars should not be spent on anti-abortion campaigns anymore than they should pro-choice campaigns.

They should be used for those things that benefit all of the folks who pay into the system ie. national defense, police, fire, etc.

And finally, before you think that I'm just another heartless individual going straight to heck, I'll share this much with you. Yes, there are those that are truly poor, and that is unfortunate fact of living in this society. We don't all get to come in first place, there are winners and losers. Should these individuals be helped? Yes, but only those that are legitimately poor, unable to work (not those that are able bodied and don't want to work), even then it should be temporary at best, and only IF all the fraud, waste, mismanagement, etc... is addressed.

We're not talking peanuts here.... waste runs into the hundreds of billions $$$. Surely that's sufficient to help the truly poor help themselves temporarily - getting them to become productive members of this society.

[Orangetj]

Just to put this in perspective - how much do these "affordable" housing units cost? As I understand it, the houses in "The Enclave" are supposedly considered affordable and they start in the mid-high $300K range. If that's what we're talking about, I find it hard to believe that this is going to draw the "riff raff" so many are worried about. If it means there will be apartments that "only" rent for $1,200 a month, I don't think we're going to be overrun by drug addicts, lifelong welfare recipients and recent halfway house releases.

Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like the idea of artificially dictating the price of housing in an area, but it sounds like this is really the result of negligent planning on the part of the City and now we just have to deal with it. My understanding is that this "affordable" housing should have been part of the plan all along but it never got built so now we're having to catch up.

[slowthegrowth]

Look at the classfieds these days. $1200/month rent for a brand new house is way low. Much closer to $1500/$2000. Even less likely to bring in the "riff raff".

[Cloud9]

Just to put this in perspective - how much do these "affordable" housing units cost?  As I understand it, the houses in "The Enclave" are supposedly considered affordable and they start in the mid-high $300K range.  If that's what we're talking about, I find it hard to believe that this is going to draw the "riff raff" so many are worried about.  If it means there will be apartments that "only" rent for $1,200 a month, I don't think we're going to be overrun by drug addicts, lifelong welfare recipients and recent halfway house releases.

Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like the idea of artificially dictating the price of housing in an area, but it sounds like this is really the result of negligent planning on the part of the City and now we just have to deal with it.  My understanding is that this "affordable" housing should have been part of the plan all along but it never got built so now we're having to catch up.

Orange, would it make you feel any better if the "affordable" housing units were $500k+ and the subsidy was greater, and extended to those making up to $100k? How about $500k+ units, and applicants w/max income is only $30k? Who gets to make the rules? the exceptions? etc.

There is no combination that you could come up with that could convince me that this is a fair and just practice that I want my tax dollars going to. I wouldn't agree with the practice even if my own children or parents were the direct beneficiaries.

This is more than just about a few folks concerned with "riff-raff". It about the principle of using public tax dollars in a way to experiment with social reengineering.

The people moving in to affordable housing units can be the nicest people on earth, well educated, decent human beings. That's not the point.

I doubt that our founding fathers vision of government's mission was a vehicle for wealth redistribution.

Hopefully a day will come in America where every citizen will be able to electronically allocate how they want their tax dollars used.

[Orangetj]

Cloud9,

There seem to be two distinct areas of concern regarding this affordable housing situation. There are those who are afraid that Folsom is going to be overrun with undesireables and there are others who oppose the idea based on it's unfairness and artificiality. Of course, there are also those who have both concerns.

My point is simply that I don't think the type of "affordable" housing that we're going to have here will be within the reach of the segment of society many people are worried about having in their neighborhoods.

A question I have is whether this housing is going to be government subsidized? It is not my understanding that this is the case, but I certainly am not fully versed regarding how the whole thing works. My understanding is that they're simply building more affordable homes - such as apartment complexes, homes with shared walls, smaller homes, etc.. Perhaps you can educate me if I am mistaken.

For the record, I agree with your points about government sanctioned redistribution of wealth and I am not a fan of people getting a free ride. Based on the somewhat limited factual information I have, it just doesn't look to me like that's what is really happening here, since these folks are still going to be required to pay for their housing.

[Cloud9]

It looks like we're both having the discussion without all of the facts, which is ok if the discussion is around the basic premise of wealth redistribution and the differing philosophies on the subject, but I readily admit that I don't know all the details.

What I do recall, if my memory serves me (which is questionable nowadays), is that like you said, the units are built to be more "affordable". I also have a faint recollection of some of the other things that come with "affordable housing" in general.

1. Downpayment assistance (a free, no strings attached, lump sum of money to assist with buying the house)

2. Subsidized lending (a lower rate of interest on the note for the homeowner)

3. $50k income limitation

If there is anyone on this forum that has more or the correct details, we'd love to hear them.

I was more interested in the principle of "affordable housing" than the actual operationalization.