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Does Anyone In ER Know What A Stop Sign Is For


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#31 Cloud9

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 09:45 AM

150mph!? Is that it? Ah well, then I'm safe because I never drive under 160mph on Folsom's roads.... biggrin.gif

By the way Terry, the beauty of the web is that information is freely available. All it takes is one person to get a ticket from one of these lights and post it on the web and everyone will know where it is.

There is more than one solution to the running of red lights. I forget where I saw it, but I do recall that in certain areas of the country if you're heading towards a light quickly, a radar gun detects it and just turns the light from green to red faster.

This method works better because it actually prevents people from endangering others by running the red light.

The other method of installing cameras just generates revenue for the city and does nothing to prevent people from running the light - endangering our citizens.

Of course, every county knows that the first method doesn't generate revenues so you'll see few implementations....


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#32 Terry

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 11:54 AM

QUOTE (Cloud9 @ Aug 25 2004, 09:45 AM)


By the way Terry, the beauty of the web is that information is freely available. All it takes is one person to get a ticket from one of these lights and post it on the web and everyone will know where it is.



And yes information is freely available, so go ahead and find the information and post it here.

#33 Terry

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 12:11 PM

QUOTE (Cloud9 @ Aug 25 2004, 09:45 AM)


The other method of installing cameras just generates revenue for the city and does nothing to prevent people from running the light - endangering our citizens.

Of course, every county knows that the first method doesn't generate revenues so you'll see few implementations....

And as far as red light camera tickets generating revenue for jurisdications, you might be interested in reading the following report:

http://www.pwsacrame...unningAudit.pdf

I did that research for you.

#34 Cloud9

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 01:21 PM

Thanks for the report Terry. There are more holes in this 110 page report than Swiss Cheese! laughcry.gif

1. It tells me how to beat red light violations in spite of the red light cameras.

"Because of the court’s ruling, approximately 250 citations were ultimately dismissed." (Now I won't even bother to find out where it is, I know how to beat the system - I can even use the report as evidence) biggrin.gif

2. While it states accidents decrease in 5 of the 6 local governments that implemented such programs, it does nothing to compare the alternative solution.

In addition, accidents probably decrease for a simple reason, people find out where they are and drive alternate routes - the report doesn't address that.

3. And I quote - "Finally, local governments themselves make little or no profit from their programs. Only two of the programs we reviewed
made significant revenues."

a. Two of the programs made significant revenues (hence it wasn't preventing people from running the light)

b. The others made little (which is still a profit), or no profit (which probably speaks more to the inefficiency of the local government than it does to the $270 ticket * number of motorists - operational costs.

c. The report states that individual red light cameras were not evaluated to determine profit, but rather the program as a whole.

4. More evidence that the local government doesn't care about the people, and I quote from the report.

"Traffic safety appeared to be a significant factor in the choice for most sites for red light cameras; however, we found that Los Angeles, Sacramento, Oxnard, and San Diego placed cameras at some intersections
that did not appear to have problems with red light violations
based on accident statistics. "

"In addition, four local governments acknowledged that they avoided placing cameras at state-owned intersections with high accident rates."

5. And I quote, "A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF RED LIGHT VIOLATIONS OCCUR WITHIN ONE SECOND OF THE LIGHT TURNING RED" - more evidence that the alternative solution would be a better preventive implementation.

6. More government waste - Again, government can't even account for the revenues, and in spite of this it made SIGNIFICANT profits in 2 counties! The local governments are potentially overpaying the vendors! Oh what a surprise there....

"Accounting for Program Revenues and Expenditures Is Weak"

"Although good internal control practices dictate proper accounting
for revenues and expenditures, only Fremont can fully account for the revenue and expenditures of its red light camera program. Because each local government pays their respective vendor based on the number of red light citations that motorists’ pay, it would be prudent for them to properly
54 account for program revenues."

"Additionally, we found that only Fremont and Long Beach conduct monthly reconciliations of their vendors’ invoices with the courts’ payment records (where traffic citations are paid) to ensure that they are paying their
vendors the appropriate amount."

"The remaining five local governments rely solely on vendors’ invoices and are unable to conduct reconciliations with the citations the courts show have been paid." laughcry.gif

7. And this is only one who got caught, what waste -

"The auditors found that the vendor had overbilled the city by more than $78,000,and the police department reduced subsequent payments to the
vendor to correct for the overpayment"

"In addition to being unable to accurately account for revenues, three of the local governments we visited do not properly account for the expenditures of their red light camera programs."

8. Want to make a profit? Manage your vendors and costs....

"Vendor Fees and Administrative Costs Differ Significantly"

"The fees and fee structures that local governments pay their
vendors differ significantly, even though the vendors provide
basically the same services. As shown in Table 7 on the following
page, Oxnard pays the lowest fee, with the vendor receiving $25
per citation, while Fremont pays its vendor $106."

"Table 7 also shows how administrative costs varied substantially among
the local governments. San Diego had the highest administrative
cost at about $39 per citation, and Los Angeles had the lowest
at about $5 per citation. As previously mentioned, San Diego
included more administrative costs in its red light camera
program than did any other local government we visited. We did
not attempt to analyze why the administrative costs varied."

9. Here are some outs folks....

"Local governments enforce only a small percentage of the
total violations recorded at red light camera intersections
for several reasons. For example, if a driver or license
plate cannot be positively identified, the violation is considered
unenforceable. Of the total number of violations that red
light cameras capture, the seven local governments we visited
eventually enforced only 23 percent in 2001, as shown in Table A.1.
State law requires that for local governments to enforce a red light
camera violation, the photograph must clearly show the license
plate and the driver of the vehicle. Local governments have
found that obtaining clear photographs is difficult at times and
that this difficulty has prevented them from enforcing a large
percentage of red light camera violations."

10. And here is where they are (keep in mind that this is an older study)
City of Sacramento

Valley Hi Drive at La Mancha Way and Mack Road May 26, 1999

El Camino Avenue at Evergreen Street June 4, 1999

Howe Avenue at Fair Oaks Boulevard June 9, 1999

Mack Road at Center Parkway December 2, 1999

Exposition Boulevard at Ethan Way December 17, 1999

30th Street at Capitol Avenue February 28, 2000

Alhambra Boulevard at J Street March 2, 2000

Broadway at 21st Street March 13, 2000

W Street/US 50 at 16th Street June 29, 2000

College Town Drive at Howe Avenue July 13, 2000

Total of red light camera intersections May 26, 1999


“ In fact, an appeal of a red light camera citation regarding
Sacramento’s placement of warning signs at major entrances resulted in a December 1999 ruling by a pro-tem traffic court commissioner that the city had failed to install warning signs in full compliance with the law.”


"The important thing is not to stop questioning'' | "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
-- Albert Einstein--

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#35 BodenMaddox

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 02:27 PM

Ah, yes, Terry confirmed by his silence that he has been yanking our chains all along. There are no camera signals in Folsom. smile.gif



#36 Terry

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 02:42 PM

QUOTE (BodenMaddox @ Aug 26 2004, 02:27 PM)
Ah, yes, Terry confirmed by his silence that he has been yanking our chains all along. There are no camera signals in Folsom. smile.gif

Sorry, won't rise to the bait. And your post is wrong on two counts, but I'll let you figure out the second one.

#37 Cloud9

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 02:57 PM

Ahh, the efficiency of government.... well, at least the solution is obvious, lets raise taxes and throw more money at the problem! biggrin.gif
"The important thing is not to stop questioning'' | "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
-- Albert Einstein--

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#38 BodenMaddox

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 05:16 PM

QUOTE (Terry @ Aug 26 2004, 01:42 PM)
QUOTE (BodenMaddox @ Aug 26 2004, 02:27 PM)
Ah, yes, Terry confirmed by his silence that he has been yanking our chains all along.  There are no camera signals in Folsom.  smile.gif

Sorry, won't rise to the bait. And your post is wrong on two counts, but I'll let you figure out the second one.

Give it up, Terry... Either give facts or don't string people along. I never claimed there were. You did. Prove it. You are asserting the positive, so you prove it. If you can't, then you should stop leading people on.



#39 Cloud9

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 08:41 PM

Terry is too busy making all those retirement calculations biggrin.gif

I must admit, that's what I'd be looking forward to as well... biggrin.gif
"The important thing is not to stop questioning'' | "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
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#40 folsomduff

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 08:21 AM

We have lived here in Empire Ranch form the beginning before Golflinks road connected to Brosdstone. There were less than 50 homes and people did not stop because no one was around. It was frustrating and stupid but not enough people to cause a problem.

Last June my high school child was walking to the bus stop, which is located at Empire Oaks Elementary School. He was run over by a car while in the crosswalk and in a school zone (the driver was driving a child to the school). He was not seriously injured, but I know he is the lucky one. As a result both my husband and I went down at separate times to the corner of Golflinks and E. Natoma and watched 70% of the people not come to a complete stop. Often I saw people stop cause there was a stop sign but not even look to see what was happening around them and just go no matter who had the right-of-way.

Additionally, when I drive down Golflinks and drive the speed limit or 5 mph above the speed limit, I am often tailgated as drivers want to drive 60 mph down the hill. There were occasions where people passed illegally because they were in too much of a hurry and it did not get them where they were going any faster. When I drive E. Natoma I am always in the fast lane, as I cannot trust that people will stop coming out of the neighborhoods. It has been a near miss one to many times. More often than not these are adults driving not the high school kids.


#41 Cloud9

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 09:12 AM

Don't you ever wonder where some of these people are speeding off to?
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#42 BodenMaddox

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Posted 05 September 2004 - 09:50 AM

I certainly empathize with you regarding your child, and I think your observations are wonderful, but... now what? Just telling us all what we already know about some drivers doesn't do anything for anyone. What's the plan to change that behavior in those drivers?

#43 Dude

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Posted 18 October 2004 - 01:13 PM

The intersection at E. Natoma & Golflinks and the Broadstone Pkwy all the way up the hill from E. Bidwell are worst in Sac Co in my opinion.

I've lived in Sac for more than a quarter century and never have I seen it so bad.

I've seen CHP on bikes parked and eying Broadstone Pkwy some months ago but never again. I believe they were there at the time because there was a bad wreck due to the failed stops by Longs, a car was hit and knocked over to it's side.

Looks to me like they'll all be replaced with lights soon but just not soon enough from the looks of it.

#44 Terry

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Posted 18 October 2004 - 06:10 PM

QUOTE(Dude @ Oct 18 2004, 01:13 PM)
The intersection at E. Natoma & Golflinks and the Broadstone Pkwy all the way up the hill from E. Bidwell are worst in Sac Co in my opinion.

I've lived in Sac for more than a quarter century and never have I seen it so bad.

I've seen CHP on bikes parked and eying Broadstone Pkwy some months ago but never again.  I believe they were there at the time because there was a bad wreck due to the failed stops by Longs, a car was hit and knocked over to it's side.

Looks to me like they'll all be replaced with lights soon but just not soon enough from the looks of it.

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CHP has no jurisdication within the city limits except near the on/off-ramps to Highway 50 so it's unlikely they were there to do enforcement.

I do agree however that Folsom drivers are incredibly lawless.

#45 BodenMaddox

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Posted 03 November 2004 - 10:53 AM

QUOTE(Terry @ Oct 18 2004, 05:10 PM)
CHP has no jurisdication within the city limits except near the on/off-ramps to Highway 50 so it's unlikely they were there to do enforcement. 

I do agree however that Folsom drivers are incredibly lawless.

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Those motorcycle cops were Folsom P.D. They sometimes set up a stop-sign sting there and get people speeding down the hill and people running the stop signs.




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