188 replies to this topic

[curiousity]

So tell me ( any of you ) what provisions of the HCB that you explicitly disagree with and which do you embrace ? Me thinks the whole right/ republican stance is NO just for the sake of NO.

I have listed a few that will benefit my family and friends - can you as well ? or are 100% of the changes out on your radar...

well, it's changed so much and it's ginormous it's really hard to know.

Last I read, small businesses will be fined if they don't provide care.
small businesses will be fined for employees that don't sign up for obamacare

employees that don't sign up for obamacare will also be fined (Obama wants your money whether you want his care or not).

small businesses will be required to cover a larger share of the healthcare costs

NOT TO MENTION, big business insurance carriers will raise rates to cover all of these additional new rules just trying to figure out how to comply. Why do you think Blue Cross plans a 40% increase?

To back up some of the above:

Individual Mandate: In 2014, everyone must purchase health insurance or face a $695 annual fine.

Employer Mandate: Employers with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2000 per worker each year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase health insurance. Fines applied to entire number of employees minus some allowances.

[folsom500]

well, it's changed so much and it's ginormous it's really hard to know.

Last I read, small businesses will be fined if they don't provide care.
small businesses will be fined for employees that don't sign up for obamacare

employees that don't sign up for obamacare will also be fined (Obama wants your money whether you want his care or not).

NOT TO MENTION, big business insurance carriers will raise rates to cover all of these additional new rules just trying to figure out how to comply. Why do you think Blue Cross plans a 40% increase?

I think you have misread the details - try again

Did you bother to read my previous post ?

Just for starters - can you deny any of these ?

Just a couple of points on the bill that will apply to me and a lot of folks and their kids with more as I find out more about what the bill and amendments change.

1. I can pay for coverage of my children's health insurance to cover them until they are 26, even if not full time in school.

2. My older partner and other older friends and their like will see the Rx donut hole go away. I know a few personally and know that many more that have lost homes and personal property to pay that donut hole.

3. I can search for private health care coverage as an option and not worry about pre-existing situations as simple as taking Prozac or being in the hospital once for chest pains...
I am self employed so my options now are very limited

These are but 3 of I am sure many that will apply to many millions of Americans...

[Folsom Guy]

So tell me ( any of you ) what provisions of the HCB that you explicitly disagree with and which do you embrace ? Me thinks the whole right/ republican stance is NO just for the sake of NO.

I have listed a few that will benefit my family and friends - can you as well ? or are 100% of the changes out on your radar...

Well - heard Rush LBaugh while driving around during lunch hour - little while ago he was talking about about leaving the country...today he was implying that he'd take his herd and fill'em jails....

Plus, at this time, the neocon talking points has not quite dissected the whole bill yet...they probably thought it 'd never happen...so, they have been limited to generalities...pretty soon they'll dive in...and then cook up things like Death Panels or may be weirdly stretch to extreme some provision and then start harping on it...

Until then, just be happy with the emotional no-substance outbursts...

[Chris]

Again with the blaming of the left. Incredible.

I've read lots of history and quite a bit on the Vietnam war. You don't have any right or reason to tell me jack s---. Back off with your blatant desire to cast the "left" as the root of all evil and ignorance.

Everything in my response was true and accurate historical FACT...! Go hit those books again and tell me where I am wrong, I dare you...! And why are you bringing JACK S--- into this...? Is this where you start editing me and deleting my posts again when I use actual historical fact that you can't refute....? Please don't use your status here as a moderator to win arguments by threatening me to "Back off". I'm not doing anything to violate the rules around here other than disagreeing with you. Anyway, I'm off topic so back to healthcare..... Chris

[folsom500]

Everything in my response was true and accurate historical FACT...! Go hit those books again and tell me where I am wrong, I dare you...! And why are you bringing JACK S--- into this...? Is this where you start editing me and deleting my posts again when I use actual historical fact that you can't refute....? Please don't use your status here as a moderator to win arguments by threatening me to "Back off". I'm not doing anything to violate the rules around here other than disagreeing with you. Anyway, I'm off topic so back to healthcare..... Chris

Yes you continue to have nothing of substance to add here ,,, so why post ? Tell me something in detail.... not just the generalizations you suggest ?

[SacKen]

... Me thinks the whole right/ republican stance is NO just for the sake of NO. ...

It goes both ways. I'd say that most of the left/democrat stance of YES is just for the sake of YES. Very few people on either side have actually read anything about the bill and formed their own opinion. Not that many are even capably of doing such a thing. They mostly just believe whatever their favorite talking arsehat says to them.

The bill has many good things about it and many bad things. It is disingenuous to simply point out the good aspects and say, "See! This is great! Why would you not want this!" Likewise, anyone that can't at least point out one good thing is equally disingenuous.

Here's something that sticks out to me... I found it rather convenient that all the good things kick in immediately. Almost all of the "revenue" aspects that will start hitting voter tax returns and increase the fines/fees/taxes for providers, pharmaceutical companies, etc., don't come into effect until ... surprise!... 2013 and later.

So at least we will all be high on the good stuff come election season. Then the hangover kicks in.

[UncleVinny]

Oh, Good - the forum is still here.
I thought maybe the world had ended now that the bill passed.

There's all good, sincere people here on the forum.
I know if someone were drowning any one of us would throw them a life preserver and haul them to shore. How is that live-saving move any different from providing health care for all our citizens?
I just don't get the opposition. Kind people, but opposed to helping our fellow Americans?!
And now the vicious name-calling. Sad!

[Robert Giacometti]

1. I can pay for coverage of my children's health insurance to cover them until they are 26, even if not full time in school.

2. My older partner and other older friends and their like will see the Rx donut hole go away. I know a few personally and know that many more that have lost homes and personal property to pay that donut hole.

3. I can search for private health care coverage as an option and not worry about pre-existing situations as simple as taking Prozac or being in the hospital once for chest pains...
I am self employed so my options now are very limited

These are but 3 of I am sure many that will apply to many millions of Americans...

I think these 3 points have merit and will be beneficial to many people.

My Question is how are these benefits going to get paid for? I keep shouting the same old message in that there isn't any free lunch! As Californians haven't we learned this lesson yet in life? These benefits will generate a cost somewhere that someone has to pay for.

I'd go out on limb and say based upon my lifes experiences I think there wll always be some people who try and game the system and there will be some people who will try their darndest to avoid paying taxes. Unfortunately people who belong in either group will have a huge uncalculated financial effect on the Healthcare Reform Package, just passed.

I read where Catepillar claims this Reform will cost them almost $100 million the first year. How many jobs will they eliminate to keep themselves competitive? How many other companies will be making job cuts to reduce their costs to keep themselves competitive in the global economy.

I'd be in the camp that is extremely skeptical that this reform's collective benefits will outweigh the overall cost to society.

Until we get a majority of people understanding and accepting that there isn't a FREE lunch, I'm afraid we are making an even bigger disaster for our children and grandchildren.

I hope for their sake, I'm wrong.

[SacKen]

Oh, Good - the forum is still here.
I thought maybe the world had ended now that the bill passed.

There's all good, sincere people here on the forum.
I know if someone were drowning any one of us would throw them a life preserver and haul them to shore. How is that live-saving move any different from providing health care for all our citizens?
I just don't get the opposition. Kind people, but opposed to helping our fellow Americans?!
And now the vicious name-calling. Sad!

It's the manner in which it is being done that is in question. Too heavy-handed and high-cost for reasons that are unnecessary to satisfy the main goal: health care for everyone. It also goes against the ideals that the United States was built on and has thrived for a long time. Half-assed socialism doesn't work. Some countries have made it work very well, but they have entirely different cultures and economies. A program that sustains itself by collecting "revenue" from companies and a small super-minority of select individuals cannot survive in a place like this.

BTW, did anyone catch that another group that will have their taxes hit after 2013 are the exact people we are trying to help? The current limit of 7.5% AGI for deducting medical expenses will be raised to 10%. So there are a lot of people with high medical costs that will no longer be able to deduct the expenses. LOL... that's how bass ackwards this bill is.

[The Average Joe]

I find it humorous that the ones crying partisanship and asking for evidence and analysis have failed to post anything of relevance, analytical nature, or heck, even attempt to refute, the multiple posts i have put up for months detailing:
What I believed,
Why I believed it,
How this bill would affect us
How the money was illusory,
The corrupted (and possibly illegal) process,
The bribes,
the harm to our political body,
The loss of intangibles for America
And much more.

I took the time to read sections of the bill and amendments. I looked into the CBO report. I compared the promises of the administration to the realities of the situation. I researched, analyzed and came to conclusions. I supported those conclusions with reason and citations.

And for what? Not a peep...no well reasoned rebuttals, no alternative viewpoint, no intellectual simmering of thoughts and ideals....
Just a few drive-bys, subject-changers, and feel good talking points...

[UncleVinny]

Good points, Baily, but maybe you are asking too much of people (sad, aye?)
To have a reasonable exchange on a passionate subject. Good luck.

SacKen

"It's the manner in which it is being done that is in question."

Let's see . . . 43 Dems voted against it.
Not one Republican voted for it.
Seems like there was more arm twisting from the GOP if you ask me.
If we took a vote on motherhood and apple pie, there would still be a few
kooks (1-2%) who would vote against it for some oddball reason.
But 178 out of 178?! You know they would crucify any who thought for themselves.

[The Average Joe]

Well, this didn't take long...

Liberal caucus leader to introduce public option

Incrementalism my friends... single payer is just a stones throw down the road...all it takes is backbreaking legislation that puts the insurance industry in a losing position and walaa...government run health care...

This quote from the comments section I found very discouraging...

"Leave the Bill alone. We have health care and food stamps. Now work on free housing and drugs."

<sigh> The New American Dream...a free ride.

And just cause I couldn't resist... Movie quote...

[Robert Giacometti]

Good points, Baily, but maybe you are asking too much of people (sad, aye?)
To have a reasonable exchange on a passionate subject. Good luck.

SacKen

"It's the manner in which it is being done that is in question."

Let's see . . . 43 Dems voted against it.
Not one Republican voted for it.
Seems like there was more arm twisting from the GOP if you ask me.
If we took a vote on motherhood and apple pie, there would still be a few
kooks (1-2%) who would vote against it for some oddball reason.
But 178 out of 178?! You know they would crucify any who thought for themselves.

What would be really interesting to know would be what would have been the vote total on this, if the votes were done without anyone knowing how each congressman voted. My gut feeling is this bill would have never passed.

Logically thinking, if the 43 Dems couldn't support this bill, why would any REP be supportive? The fact remains the REPS were NOT given any legitimate opportunity to help in crafting this legislation. The only comprimising being done was gain enough DEMs to support this and when compromise wasn't enough to win their support, then deals were cut to buy their votes.

How could any REP or for that matter any Moderate in good conscious support something like this?

Going forward, I don't see how there will ever be any cooperation between the parties under this administration, unless they really make an effort to reach out and give the REPS something.

[bordercolliefan]

How could any REP or for that matter any Moderate in good conscious support something like this?

Well, why don't you ask Mitt Romney? It's basically his plan.

And I will add, thank God Mitt did the right thing in Massachusetts... it is probably my sister's only hope to have health care.