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Bicycle parking on Sutter Street


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#31 tony

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 05:57 PM

QUOTE (Redone @ Apr 12 2010, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LOL, your perspective if that of a bike rider

( not one who wants to travel less distance, but to travel more )

No argument there. Life is all about the journey!

#32 Terry

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 09:33 PM

QUOTE (tony @ Apr 12 2010, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As I mentioned before, the current plan provides 54 bike racks in the project, but not on Sutter Street as you say. Location matters. 54 may be an adequate number for Sutter St. but not if they are not on Sutter Street. But who's to know? To my knowledge, no-one made an effort to ascertain the amount needed. And the only reason anyone is suggesting removing car parking spaces for bike parking, is because the proposed bike parking does not meet a clear current need (the 700 and 800 blocks in particular).

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So your saying people who drive cars should walk further to get to Sutter Street than people who ride bikes????? And as far as shopping goes, I've seen few bicyclists carrying significant purchases from local businesses anywhere in Folsom......unless you count the few 3-wheel trikes with baskets.

#33 tony

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 09:56 AM

QUOTE (Terry @ Apr 12 2010, 10:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So your saying people who drive cars should walk further to get to Sutter Street than people who ride bikes????? And as far as shopping goes, I've seen few bicyclists carrying significant purchases from local businesses anywhere in Folsom......unless you count the few 3-wheel trikes with baskets.

Short answer: yes. A good rule of thumb is that the bike parking at any business should be at least as close as the closest non-ADA parking space. The "best practice" for locating bike parking (as described in the Association of Pedestrian and Bicycle Professionals Guide to Bike Parking) is that it be between 50' and 120' of the main entrance. Why? Primarily because if it is not, it won't get used. If it is off in a corner somewhere, bicyclists are likely not to even find it. If they don't find it, they will park their bikes wherever they can find to do so. So, if merchants don't want to be "plagued" by bikes parked randomly along the street, there needs to be convenient bike parking. More importantly, it needs to be in a high-traffic and/or highly visible location to minimize the chance of theft or vandalism (all but the very best locks are merely a speed bump for a determined thief). In the historic district, because of the proximity to the American River Parkway Bike Path, you have the added complication that most cyclists will not be carrying a lock. So, if they can't park their bike somewhere where they can keep an eye on it, they simply won't stop and spend money (that's a major reason -- in addition to good food -- why Karen's and the Sutter Street Grille are so popular with cyclists). Most Sutter Street shops are small enough that one can park a bike out front and keep an eye on it from inside the store.

As for the lack of observed bike shoppers, Folsom's bike scene is certainly focused on recreation at this point. Yes, Folsom is in the heart of suburbia, where people tend to think of bicycling purely as a recreational activity; certainly our elected leaders do. But part of the reason is that the infrastructure is missing. For more on this, see my previous posts on shopping by bike. The fact is that most shopping trips do not involve large quantities of goods or a great distance. They are perfect trips to be done by bike. If you can go through the 10 items or less line at the grocery store, you can carry that home on a bike.

More to the point, I don't understand why people are so hostile to the idea of providing basic amenities for cyclists (they are, after all, required by the city's zoning code). Bike racks are cheap: a rack to park 2 bikes costs a couple hundred dollars installed, compared to about $8000 for a single automobile parking spot. Same rack takes up 4" x 2.5' when empty, and about 3'x6' when full, compared to a 10'x20' auto parking spot (not including required access aisles which nearly double the total space). Every bike parked in a rack frees up a parking spot for someone else in a car. It's a really efficient way to get more customers into the district. Isn't that the goal? Even if they only patronize restaurants, cyclists add significantly to the economic vitality of the district. I suspect that if you looked at sales taxes in the district, the majority would be from the eating/drinking establishments. they are a very substantial portion of the business mix, and I suspect account for the majority of paying customers.

#34 mylo

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 10:02 AM

Bike riders are important people. They deserve to walk less than car drivers. Their legs must be tired.
"Ah, yes, those Gucci extremists and their Prada jihad!" --ducky

#35 tony

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 10:48 AM

QUOTE (mylo @ Apr 16 2010, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bike riders are important people. They deserve to walk less than car drivers. Their legs must be tired.

Pretty easy to completely ignore the arguments and just throw darts. Cute though.

Let's turn it around. Why shouldn't bicyclists get to park at least as close as motorists?

#36 ducky

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 10:50 AM

QUOTE (tony @ Apr 16 2010, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pretty easy to completely ignore the arguments and just throw darts. Cute though.

Let's turn it around. Why shouldn't bicyclists get to park at least as close as motorists?


I'm not a bicyclist, but I think you have a valid point about bike riders wanting to keep an eye on their bicycles. I'd want mine parked in a high traffic area and not somewhere behind a building.

#37 (The Dude)

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 10:53 AM

QUOTE (ducky @ Apr 16 2010, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not a bicyclist, but I think you have a valid point about bike riders wanting to keep an eye on their bicycles. I'd want mine parked in a high traffic area and not somewhere behind a building.


With those multi-thousand dollar expensive bikes out there, someone should start selling bicycle insurance for both theft and accidents.
I've seen bicyclists go to Sutter Grill and Black Rooster but have never seen them shopping on Sutter, maybe they do it at night when we're not looking?

#38 mylo

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 11:06 AM

QUOTE (tony @ Apr 16 2010, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Let's turn it around. Why shouldn't bicyclists get to park at least as close as motorists?

Are bicycles banned from parking in a car spot in the parking garage?

QUOTE (ducky @ Apr 16 2010, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not a bicyclist, but I think you have a valid point about bike riders wanting to keep an eye on their bicycles. I'd want mine parked in a high traffic area and not somewhere behind a building.

I want to keep an eye on my car, too. But I have to park with everyone else. I don't get special privileges because I drive a bus.
"Ah, yes, those Gucci extremists and their Prada jihad!" --ducky

#39 (The Dude)

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 11:12 AM

QUOTE (mylo @ Apr 16 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Are bicycles banned from parking in a car spot in the parking garage?


I want to keep an eye on my car, too. But I have to park with everyone else. I don't get special privileges because I drive a bus.


your bus is worth more then a bike, you should park it on the sidewalk just to be safe

#40 tony

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 12:00 PM

QUOTE (mylo @ Apr 16 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Are bicycles banned from parking in a car spot in the parking garage?

Don't know, but there is nothing to lean a bike on or lock to in a car spot, and image the ire from motorists when they found that "their" space was taken by a bike.
QUOTE (mylo @ Apr 16 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I want to keep an eye on my car, too. But I have to park with everyone else. I don't get special privileges because I drive a bus.

No-one is requesting special privileges, just equal accommodation and smart design. You guys will attempt to ridicule anything, won't you?

QUOTE (The Dude @ Apr 16 2010, 12:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
your bus is worth more then a bike, you should park it on the sidewalk just to be safe

I haven't seen the bus, but I wouldn't count on it.

#41 mylo

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 01:07 PM

QUOTE (tony @ Apr 16 2010, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Don't know, but there is nothing to lean a bike on or lock to in a car spot, and image the ire from motorists when they found that "their" space was taken by a bike.

No-one is requesting special privileges, just equal accommodation and smart design. You guys will attempt to ridicule anything, won't you?


I haven't seen the bus, but I wouldn't count on it.

I agree. Accommodation should be made for bikes. Just like we have motorcycle spots. Take 2 or 3 of the parking spots in the garage and install the lockable bike racks in them. Everyone's happy! Or, bolt them to the outside. Wait, aren't there already bike racks in/on the parking structure?

It's the entitlement attitude that bicycles "deserve" to be parked closer to shops, otherwise bikers won't shop there, that bugs me. If everyone said that, we'd all have personal parking spaces wherever we went.
"Ah, yes, those Gucci extremists and their Prada jihad!" --ducky

#42 tony

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 01:28 PM

QUOTE (mylo @ Apr 16 2010, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree. Accommodation should be made for bikes. Just like we have motorcycle spots. Take 2 or 3 of the parking spots in the garage and install the lockable bike racks in them. Everyone's happy! Or, bolt them to the outside. Wait, aren't there already bike racks in/on the parking structure?

It's the entitlement attitude that bicycles "deserve" to be parked closer to shops, otherwise bikers won't shop there, that bugs me. If everyone said that, we'd all have personal parking spaces wherever we went.

Not closer; equally close. It just happens that bike parking takes so little space that it can all be placed as close as the closest car spots, which results in it being closer than most of the car spots. It's not the bicyclists fault that automobile parking spaces take up so much room.

Besides, it's not about entitlement, it's about good business sense. Bicyclists, as a group, have more disposable income than average, and have been shown to spend it. So it just makes good sense to do the little things it takes to attract that business. After all, our merchants insist that no-one would shop in the historic district (against all evidence from other towns) if there were not 600 or so free car parking spaces, each one between 40 (surface lot) and 200 (parking garage) times as expensive as a bike parking space. Exactly where is the sense of entitlement?

And finally, a quiz: who are the only people who actually pay directly for a parking spot anywhere in Folsom on a regular basis? Yep, bicyclists who rent bike lockers at RT stations.

#43 ducky

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 01:58 PM

QUOTE (mylo @ Apr 16 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I want to keep an eye on my car, too. But I have to park with everyone else. I don't get special privileges because I drive a bus.


Although I know people with classic cars, convertibles, or expensive cars that feel the same way, I don't think it's the same thing.

It's a heck of a lot easier for someone to steal a bike or mess with things like a water bottle attached or something. With a car, you just lock it inside.

#44 mylo

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 02:00 PM

QUOTE (ducky @ Apr 16 2010, 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Although I know people with classic cars, convertibles, or expensive cars that feel the same way, I don't think it's the same thing.

It's a heck of a lot easier for someone to steal a bike or mess with things like a water bottle attached or something. With a car, you just lock it inside.

It's also a lot more expensive to replace a broken window than a stolen water bottle. In pure risk mitigation, it's much smarter to keep an eye on your car than your bicycle.
"Ah, yes, those Gucci extremists and their Prada jihad!" --ducky

#45 chris v

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 02:02 PM

Thats ok... I refuse to use a bike rack. My good bike will never be locked on a rack. So I take it with me. tongue.gif




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