61 replies to this topic

[Devdave]

The cycling discussion boards are suggesting that "Pharmstrong" manufactured the crash (his long-time lieutenant Chechen Rubiera was first to go down) so he could exit the Tour and lay low while the doping allegations swirl.

I don't know. On the one hand, his injuries looked pretty real. On the other hand, since when do riders crash 15 minutes into a race on a straight stretch of road?

His injuries WERE real, regardless of anyone causing the accident on purpose. Other riders were also involved in the crash as well, in ANY Peloton, it doesn't take much to have a crash occur. I've crossed a tire before, and the next thing I felt was my head hitting the pavement.

He seemed fairly upset that he was going to have to abandon....so... I don't know if I believe the chatter

Will be really interesting to see how this whole Landis issue plays out. But Landis was always angry and unstable, so who knows what the truth is.

[Darth Lefty]

Drug-Using Cyclist in Cycling Race for Drug Users Reportedly Admits Using Drugs

[Devdave]

Here's the details of the crash, they were just caught up in the mess:

How the Crash happened.

[Ogre of 4]

The cycling discussion boards are suggesting that "Pharmstrong" manufactured the crash (his long-time lieutenant Chechen Rubiera was first to go down) so he could exit the Tour and lay low while the doping allegations swirl.

I don't know. On the one hand, his injuries looked pretty real. On the other hand, since when do riders crash 15 minutes into a race on a straight stretch of road?

Oh brother Another Armstrong hater.

Hey here's a great idea, you crash your bike right in front of me, in the middle of the peloton, doing 35mph or so. I'll do a face plant and maybe break a collar bone but, hey, at least I won't have to talk to reporters.

Gimme a break!

[folsombound]

I think this article says it all. At least as far as I am concerned.

http://kevin-blackis.....dent-as-ever/

[brown]

More emails released by Radio Shack:

http://www.livestron...ng-allegations/

This is just getting sad, the guy is just nuts. It is still my opinion that Lance raced dirty in the past, but Landis is a kook.

I read the original email from Floyd and the fact that he threw Allen Lim under the bus is just a joke. I went to school and rode with Allen, he has always been as adamantly anti-doping as you can get. A lot of my friends are still in touch with him and we were discussing this yesterday, everyone would be absolutely shocked if Allen was in any way involved.

[bordercolliefan]

You know, in a way I think it's sweet that there are people who still want to believe in Armstrong and the other accused riders. I used to be that way, too -- I loved Tyler and trusted his denials -- but somewhere along the way I lost my innocence.

While not wanting to put anybody down, I wonder if all the true believers have really read all the evidence:

--the initials on the blood bags found from Operation Puerto
--the book by Joe Walsh, the Irish journalist (I think I have his name correct)
--the comments of Lance's Irish soigneur
--the under-oath testimony of Becky Andreu that Lance admitted using drugs -- she NEVER publicized this until forced to reveal it in a legal deposition
--the text messages between Frankie Andreu and ??Jonathan Vaughters?? about Postals' doping practices when they were on the team
--the recently discovered evidence of EPO in Lance's blood from TdF years ago (oh that's right, the French are all liars)
--Greg Lemond's allegations
--The rumors of a "Come to Jesus and confess past sins" meeting at the first Garmin training camp, where Vaughters acknowledged everyone probably had doping in their past but things were going to be different at Garmin

and, of course, the realization that all the people Lance was beating (Ullrich, etc.) were on drugs... is Lance really that incredible a physical specimen?!

Either an incredible number of people have axes to grind against Lance (Becky Andreu?!)... or where there's smoke there's fire.

[bordercolliefan]

Text messages between Frankie Andreu and Jonathan Vaughters about Postal (these came out only because they were subpoenaed in a litigation):


FDREU: After 1999, you know many things changed. lance did not

FDREU: I believe that's part of whey kevin left, he was tired of the stuff

Cyclevaughters: yeah, i could explain the whole way lance dupes everyone

FDREU: what abut GH climbing the mountains better than azevedo and the entire group

Cyclevaughters: from how floyd described it, i know exactly the methos

FDREU: explain that, classics to climber

FDREU: when did you talk with floyd

Cyclevaughters: i don't know - i want to trust George

Cyclevaughters: but the thing is on that team, you think it's normal

Cyclevaughters: or at least i did

FDREU: i guess. anything with blodd is not normal

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's very complex how the avoid all the controls now, but it's not any new drug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull of a well devised plan

Cyclevaughters: it's why they all got dropped on stage 9 - no refill yet - then on the rest day - boom 800ml of packed cells

FDREU: they have it mastered. good point

Cyclevaughters: they draw the blood right after the dauphine

FDREU: how do they sneak it in, or keep it until needed

FDREU: i'm sure it's not with the truck in the frig

Cyclevaughters: motorcycle - refridgerated panniers

Cyclevaughters: on the rest day

Cyclevaughters: floyd has a photo of the thing

FDREU: crazy! it' just keep going to new levels

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's complicated, but with enough money you can do it

FDREU: they have enough money. Floyd was so pissed at them this entire tour

Cyclevaughters: anyhow - i just feel sorry for floyd and some of the other guys

Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the s--- when he clearly has nothing to prove - it's weird

FDREU: I know. me to. they all get ripped into for no reason

FDREU: he's done now, thank god. but they will prove next year for Johan's sake that they are the greatest

Cyclevaughters: and then lance says " this guy and that guys are pussies"

FDREU: they won't stop

FDREU: I agree

[folsombound]

Text messages between Frankie Andreu and Jonathan Vaughters about Postal (these came out only because they were subpoenaed in a litigation):


FDREU: After 1999, you know many things changed. lance did not

FDREU: I believe that's part of whey kevin left, he was tired of the stuff

Cyclevaughters: yeah, i could explain the whole way lance dupes everyone

FDREU: what abut GH climbing the mountains better than azevedo and the entire group

Cyclevaughters: from how floyd described it, i know exactly the methos

FDREU: explain that, classics to climber

FDREU: when did you talk with floyd

Cyclevaughters: i don't know - i want to trust George

Cyclevaughters: but the thing is on that team, you think it's normal

Cyclevaughters: or at least i did

FDREU: i guess. anything with blodd is not normal

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's very complex how the avoid all the controls now, but it's not any new drug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull of a well devised plan

Cyclevaughters: it's why they all got dropped on stage 9 - no refill yet - then on the rest day - boom 800ml of packed cells

FDREU: they have it mastered. good point

Cyclevaughters: they draw the blood right after the dauphine

FDREU: how do they sneak it in, or keep it until needed

FDREU: i'm sure it's not with the truck in the frig

Cyclevaughters: motorcycle - refridgerated panniers

Cyclevaughters: on the rest day

Cyclevaughters: floyd has a photo of the thing

FDREU: crazy! it' just keep going to new levels

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's complicated, but with enough money you can do it

FDREU: they have enough money. Floyd was so pissed at them this entire tour

Cyclevaughters: anyhow - i just feel sorry for floyd and some of the other guys

Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the s--- when he clearly has nothing to prove - it's weird

FDREU: I know. me to. they all get ripped into for no reason

FDREU: he's done now, thank god. but they will prove next year for Johan's sake that they are the greatest

Cyclevaughters: and then lance says " this guy and that guys are pussies"

FDREU: they won't stop

FDREU: I agree

Oh yeah, those prove everything!

[bordercolliefan]

Oh yeah, those prove everything!

No one is saying these "prove" everything, in the sense that Lance could be proven guilty in a court of law.

The question becomes what is reasonable to believe.

Or, put another way, how many other people are you going to call "liars" so you can keep believing in Lance?

[folsombound]

No one is saying these "prove" everything, in the sense that Lance could be proven guilty in a court of law.

The question becomes what is reasonable to believe.

Or, put another way, how many other people are you going to call "liars" so you can keep believing in Lance?

What other people? All the folks with an axe to grind because he was so much better than they were?

Tell me, if Landis knew what was going on and how they were doing it, why didn't he do it the same way? Then he wouldn't have been caught, right? If you know it is being done in a way that is foolproof and you decide to do it too, why would you do it so stupidly?
Landis doped, lied about it, begged for and got $1 - 2 million from his fans to defend himself, tried to force his way into the Amgen tour this year and told them if they didn't let him and his team in, he would "blow the lid off". They didn't cave to him and he came up with this. Landis is lower than a snake and anyone who would buy his story is crazy.

[bordercolliefan]

What other people?

See post above.

Becky Andreu? She never mentioned anything until forced to testify under deposition.

My understanding is that Vaughters and Frankie Andreu fought to shield their text messages from disclosure (I think that was also in relation to a subpoena) -- they did NOT want to tick off Lance and were extremely embarassed when the messages were disclosed.

I agree that Floyd is a frequent liar. It's all the other people I'm not so ready to dismiss.

[folsombound]

OK, I chose to believe that a spectacular athlete who has been tested for perfomance enhancing drugs more than any other athlete in history and has come out of that clean, is clean. You choose to believe that despite that, the rumors, inuendo and backstabbing of others somehow prove otherwise. We disagree!

[bordercolliefan]

Here is the text of Landis' email. It is loaded with detail and mentions a lot of people besides Lance.

2002: I was instructed on how to use Testosterone patches by Johan Bruyneel
during the During the Dauphine Libere in June, after which I flew on a
helicopter with Mr Armstrong from the finish, I believe Grenoble, to San
Mauritz Switzerland at which point I was personally handed a box of 2.5 mg
patches in front of his wife who witnessed the exchange. About a week
later, Dr Ferrari performed an extraction of half a liter of blood to be
transfused back into me during the Tour de France. Mr Armstrong was not
witness to the extraction but he and I had lengthy discussions about it on
our training rides during which time he also explained to me the evolution
of EPO testing and how transfusions were now necessary due to the
inconvenience of the new test. He also divulged to me at that time that in
the first year that the EPO test was used he had been told by Mr Ferrari,
who had access to the new test, that he should not use EPO anymore but he
did not believe Mr Farrari and contin
ued to use it. He later, while winning the Tour de Swiss, the month before
the Tour de France, tested positive for EPO at which point he and Mr
Bruyneel flew to the UCI headquarters and made a financial agreement with
Mr. Vrubrugen to keep the positive test hidden.

2003: After a broken hip in the winter, I flew to Gerona Spain where this
time two units (half a liter each) were extracted three weeks apart. This
took place in the apartment in which Mr. Armstrong lived and in which I was
asked to stay and check the blood temperature every day. It was kept in a
small refrigerator in the closet allong with the blood of Mr Armstrong and
George Hincapie and since Mr. Armstrong was planning on being gone for a few
weeks to train he asked me to stay in his place and make sure the
electricity didn't turn off or something go wrong with the referigerator.
Then during the Tour de France the entire team, on two different occasions
went to the room that we were told and the doctor met us there to do the
transfusions. During that Tour de France I personally witnessed George
Hincapie, Lance Armstrong, Chechu Rubiera, and myself receiving blood
transfusions. Also during that Tour de France the team doctor would give my
room mate, George Hincapie an
d I a small syringe of olive oil in which was disolved andriol, a form of
ingestible testosterone on two out of three nights throughout the duration.

I was asked to ride the Vuelta a Espana that year in support of Roberto
Heras and in August, between the Tour and the Vuelta, was told to take EPO
to raise my hematocrit back up so more blood transfusions could be
performed. I was instructed to go to Lances place by Johan Bruyneel and get
some EPO from him. The first EPO I ever used was then handed to me in the
entry way to his building in full view of his then wife. It was Eprex by
brand and it came in six pre measured syringes. I used it intravenously for
several weeks before the next blood draw and had no problems with the tests
during the Vuelta. Also during this time it was explained to me how to use
Human Growth Hormone by Johan Bruyneel and I bought what I needed from Pepe
the team "trainer" who lived in Valencia along with the team doctor at that
time. While training for that Vuelta I spent a good deal of time training
with Matthew White and Michael Barry and shared the testosterone and EPO
that we had and discu
ssed the use thereof while training.

Again, during the Vuelta we were given Andriol and blood transfusions by the
team doctor and had no problems with any testing.

2004: Again the team performed two seperate blood transfusions on me, but
this time Bruyneel had become more paranoid and we did the draws by flying
to Belgium and meeting at an unknown persons appartment and the blood was
brought by "Duffy" who was at that time Johans assistant of sorts. The
second of which was performed on the team bus on the ride from the finish of
a stage to the hotel during which the driver pretended to have engine
trouble and stopped on a remote mountain road for an hour or so so the
entire team could have half a liter of blood added. This was the only time
that I ever saw the entire team being transfused in plain view of all the
other riders and bus driver. That team included Lance Armstrong, George
Hincapie and I as the only Americans.

2005: I had learned at this point how to do most of the transfusion
technicals and other things on my own so I hired Allen Lim as my assistant
to help with details and logistics. He helped Levi Leipheimer and I prepare
the transfusions for Levi and I and made sure they were kept at the proper
temperature. We both did two seperate transfusions that Tour however my
hematocrit was too low at the start so I did my first one a few days before
the start so as to not start with a deficit.

2006: Well you get the idea....... One thing of great signigicance is that
I sat down with Andy Riis and explained to him what was done in the past and
what was the risk I would be taking and ask for his permission which he
granted in the form of funds to complete the operation described. John
Lelangue was also informed by me and Andy Riis consulted with Jim Ochowitz
before agreeing.

[MikeinFolsom]

Some people just hate to see a guy that is on top of their game. Why would you even be quoting Landis? You were probably one of his "faithful" that sat there with tears in your eyes when he was proclaiming his innocence, only to find out you had been tricked just like all of the other mindless lemmings. Until Armstrong is caught, allegations are just that. Allegations. Get over it. Dang.