51 replies to this topic

[palango]

(CNN) – As of Saturday, Arizona Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' name appeared on a website titled "take back the 20" as part of a list originally issued by Sarah Palin of vulnerable House Democrats. A map on the site showed crosshairs over the contested Democratic districts.

Palin first posted the list in March 2010, naming 20 House members who voted for health care reform and represented districts that Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona won in the 2008 presidential election.


The post read, "We'll aim for these races and many others. This is just the first salvo in a fight to elect people across the nation who will bring common sense to Washington," and was accompanied by a map with targets over the districts.

At the time, Giffords responded to the map by saying on MSNBC that her long-serving colleagues had "never seen anything like it."

"The thing is, the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district," Giffords said in March. "When people do that, they've got to realize there's consequences to that action."

After Giffords was shot in Tuscon, Arizona, Saturday, Palin responded on her Facebook page:

"My sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today's tragic shootings in Arizona. On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families, and for peace and justice."

At a press conference Saturday, Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik criticized people who are making a living off "inflaming the American public."

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government, the anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous," Dupnik said. "Unfortunately, Arizona has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry."

And Saturday's tragedy was not the first time the Arizona Democrat was targeted. The day after she voted in favor of health care reform, a glass panel at her Tucson office was shattered.

Giffords won a close race against Republican Jesse Kelly in November. Kelly was a Tea Party favorite who ultimately received 47 percent of the vote to Giffords' 49 percent. The Republican-leaning 8th district went for George W. Bush in 2000 and 2004.

Tea Party Express Chairwoman Amy Kremer responded to the events Saturday by saying the group is "shocked and saddened" by the "terrible tragedy."

"These heinous crimes have no place in America, and they are especially grievous when committed against our elected officials. Spirited debate is desirable in our country, but it only should be the clash of ideas," Kremer said in a statement. "An attack on anyone for political purposes, if that was a factor in this shooting, is an attack on the democratic process. We join with everyone in vociferously condemning it.

[palango]

one poster online (cbat) states it perfectly:

Stevie Wonder could have seen this coming. The right wingnut conservati­­ve hate machine created their monster. The teaparty, Palin, Fox news, Limbaugh, Beck will attempt to distance themselves from this, but this what happens when irresponsi­­ble political rhetoric and lies are taken too far. It is only a matter of time before some nut takes you seriously, remember the death of Dr. Tiller. I am talking to you O'Reilly. I guarantee before the week is up some right wingnut conservati­­ve host will blame this on Obama.

[Bill Z]

The best thing I have read on this thus far is....Why is BillZ and MaxineR (the super steroid trigger happy anti Obama and tea party loving patriots) and all the Palin/Beck soooo silent.

Because I have chosen to ignore your political rants.

I have done so as many of your rants include point blank racist statements (including this one), and since you consider me to be a hypocrit (as you have not apologized for calling me one), I realize it is a complete waste of my time to respond to your rants.

BTW, I have never attended any meetings and I do not follow the Tea Party and I am no fan of Sarah Palin. I'm also not a fan of Rush Limbaugh. But because you don't understand Libertarianism, you paint me with a picture of what you choose to think of me as and IMO, you are very incorrect.

Have a nice day!

[palango]

Because I have chosen to ignore your political rants.

I have done so as many of your rants include point blank racist statements (including this one), and since you consider me to be a hypocrit (as you have not apologized for calling me one), I realize it is a complete waste of my time to respond to your rants.

BTW, I have never attended any meetings and I do not follow the Tea Party and I am no fan of Sarah Palin. I'm also not a fan of Rush Limbaugh. But because you don't understand Libertarianism, you paint me with a picture of what you choose to think of me as and IMO, you are very incorrect.

Have a nice day!

Thanks for the love brother. You can choose to "ignore" all my rants which you have every right to, but the trigger happy BillZ that I know should have AT LEAST replied to the actual news story. Silence speaks volumes in times like these. I wonder how many seconds it would take you to reply if his name was Mohammed???


These guys (Palin, Beck, Limbaugh) are american version of the muslim imams and clerics. While the clerics are straightforward issuing fatwas, these american bigots issue theirs in coded language, so that they wont have any legal culpability in the death of people they dont agree with.


Terrorism and horrific crimes against humanity crosses all sociopolitical, socioeconomic, and religious boundries. This is the argument I have been making all through these years and now that this WHITE kid does something like this, he has "mental' issues and of course he is NOT a terrorist.

[Chris]

Hey Palango, you seem to have totally ignored this below that I posted up earlier in this thread....? Chris

http://www.fas.org/i...d/para/left.pdf

"Between 1988 and 1998, 13, 858 people died in attacks committed by the 10 most active
terrorist organizations in the world. The most violent of these was the Kurdistan
Workers’ Party (PKK), which was responsible for 3,575 deaths. When all of the deaths
attributed to these groups are compared, leftist organizations were responsible for 10,198
or 74 percent of all people killed by the 10 major terrorist groups during this time period
(Omestad, et al., 1999). From an international perspective, leftist terrorism is alive and
well."
"EXTREMISM ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT
Many believe that leftist extremism in the United States was at its peak during the 1960s
and 1970s and that right-wing extremism then became the major threat. While the
bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City and a number of other
incidents attributed to right-wing extremists indicate that the major threat is from the
right, leftist extremism remains a concern within the United States.
Left-wing groups were responsible for three-fourths of the officially designated acts of
domestic terrorism in the United States during the 1980s. About half of these incidents
were committed by Puerto Rican separatist groups and the remainder by traditional leftist
terrorist groups like M19CO (Smith, 1994)."

[Dave Burrell]

From this NY Times this morning

WASHINGTON - Within minutes of the first reports Saturday that Representative Gabrielle Giffords, an Arizona Democrat, and a score of people with her had been shot in Tucson, pages began disappearing from the Web. One was Sarah Palin's infamous "cross hairs" map from last year, which showed a series of contested Congressional districts, including Ms. Giffords's, with gun targets trained on them. Another was from Daily Kos, the liberal blog, where one of the congresswoman's apparently liberal constituents declared her "dead to me" after Ms. Giffords voted against Nancy Pelosi in House leadership elections last week.

Odds are pretty good that neither of these - nor any other isolated bit of imagery - had much to do with the shooting in Tucson. But scrubbing them from the Internet couldn't erase all evidence of the rhetorical recklessness that permeates our political moment. The question is whether Saturday's shooting marks the logical end point of such a moment - or rather the beginning of a terrifying new one.

Modern America has endured such moments before. The intense ideological clashes of the 1960s, which centered on Communism and civil rights and Vietnam, were marked by a series of assassinations that changed the course of American history, carried out against a televised backdrop of urban riots and self-immolating war protesters. During the culture wars of the 1990s, fought over issues like gun rights and abortion, right-wing extremists killed 168 people in Oklahoma City and terrorized hundreds of others in Atlanta's Centennial Olympic Park and at abortion clinics in the South.

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As you all can see (in bold) - even some liberals had issues with Ms Giffords.

I don't see this as a conservatives vs liberals caused murder spree, but rather the results of a nut job murdering maniac. Also, based on the pictures I've seen of the killer, a long haired hippy kid... he doesn't strike me as a conservative at all and so far it's all been wild hasty assumptions that this was a conservative tea party plot

Another note, anyone remember John Hinkley? As I recall he wasn't a conservative nor a tea party member......

[Bill Z]

Thanks for the love brother. You can choose to "ignore" all my rants which you have every right to, but the trigger happy BillZ that I know should have AT LEAST replied to the actual news story. Silence speaks volumes in times like these. I wonder how many seconds it would take you to reply if his name was Mohammed???

Well, I would be horrified if I found it was one of my friends and colleagues named Mohammed. I also take issue with you calling me trigger happy. My love of the 2nd ammendment and of my hobby of owning and shooting guns at inanimate objects does not make me "trigger happy".

"Trigger Happy" is defined as:

trig·ger-hap·py (trgr-hp)
adj. Slang
1. Having a tendency or desire to shoot a firearm before adequately identifying the target.
2. Inclined to react violently at the slightest provocation.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
trigger-happy
adj Informal
1. tending to resort to the use of firearms or violence irresponsibly

As I abhor the initiation of violence to resolve conflict, I am anything but "Trigger Happy". Once again you choose to attack my character with inflammatory language that is absolutely incorrect in describing me.

I would like to make a personal request. I don't believe I have attacked your character, I respectfully request that you stop attacking mine. Please stop referring to me and what you think I would do or say when I haven't made any comment on a particular topic as you can not know what I am thinking.

[palango]

You're absolutely right dude! Just like the silence speaks volumes when Muslims don't do anything or say anything against their extremist murdering terrorist brothers.

Wrong about that again. The loudspeaker was not loud enough and it is NOt chic/sexy for the mainstream media to carry the voices of moderate Muslims in the US that were outraged after 911 and after every senseless attack in the name of religion. Please note that my own personal family has a PERSONAL stake against Osama himself as his criminal gang personally hanged and then bullett rained Abdul Haq (Reagan's freedom Fighter buddy and my dad's cousin) right after 911. I have consistently and the Muslims that I choose to associate myself with have ALWAYS and unequivocally and immediately repudiated ANY acts of terror in the name of religion, but unfortunately we do not have the same microphone that your buddies Palin/Beck and Limbaugh have.

I believe that an act of terror in the name of ANY religion is an act of terror when you strip the religion out of it. If the terrorist Glen Beck is right then out of 10 of my Muslim friends one of us is a terrorist... wrong again!!!

I am a hard working tax paying citizen struggling to make ends meet every month just like anyone of you, but the differnce is that I CHOOSE not to be brainwashed by the wahabi crazy Imams or the wahabi Palin/Beck terrorists preaching hate.

I stand firmly by my statement that:

These guys (Palin, Beck, Limbaugh) are american version of the muslim imams and clerics. While the clerics are straightforward issuing fatwas, these american bigots issue theirs in coded language, so that they wont have any legal culpability in the death of people they dont agree with. ANYONE that listens to their (Wahabi Imams and Beck and palin) should be on the terrorist watch list!!!!


If the kids name was Mohammed, he would have been called a Terrorist within the first 30 seconds!!!

[palango]

Well, I would be horrified if I found it was one of my friends and colleagues named Mohammed. I also take issue with you calling me trigger happy. My love of the 2nd ammendment and of my hobby of owning and shooting guns at inanimate objects does not make me "trigger happy".

"Trigger Happy" is defined as:


As I abhor the initiation of violence to resolve conflict, I am anything but "Trigger Happy". Once again you choose to attack my character with inflammatory language that is absolutely incorrect in describing me.

I would like to make a personal request. I don't believe I have attacked your character, I respectfully request that you stop attacking mine. Please stop referring to me and what you think I would do or say when I haven't made any comment on a particular topic as you can not know what I am thinking.

fair enough. I retract my trigger happy comment to BillZ and I apologize to him in this public forum for these comments. We are all human and in times of raw emotion, it brings out the best and sometimes worst of us. I am just frustrated that still no one in the media and some online are STILL in denial that this WAS a Terrorist strike.

[Bill Z]

fair enough. I retract my trigger happy comment to BillZ and I apologize to him in this public forum for these comments. We are all human and in times of raw emotion, it brings out the best and sometimes worst of us. I am just frustrated that still no one in the media and some online are STILL in denial that this WAS a Terrorist strike.

Thank you, I will weigh in on your claim of terrorism. I have not heard enough about this to know the whack jobs motives. If the guilty party shot the congresswoman as a political statement to scare the liberals in AZ that are against the conservatives in AZ that support the Governor and their attempt to enforce our immigration laws, then I would agree with you that it was a terrorist attack. Terrorism really comes down to motives. The whack job that shot Reagan was not a terrorist. The citizen that shot Lee Harvey Oswald was not a terrorist. I'm not sure if Lee Harvey Oswald was a terrorist or not, he may have been, I'm not sure we truly understand his motive. There is a difference in just being an assassin and being a terrorist. Until I hear/read more, I don't know which category to put this violent criminal in.

[palango]

I am tired of bashing my head against the wall on subjects here politics section. Its no longer fun and its too much work. So I will sign off and go on a sabbatical. If anyone cares to know my opinion about future events, please feel free to PM me.

[Dave Burrell]

I am tired of bashing my head against the wall on subjects here politics section. Its no longer fun and its too much work. So I will sign off and go on a sabbatical. If anyone cares to know my opinion about future events, please feel free to PM me.

Hey don't give up, I for one enjoy reading your passionate arguments. Just don't let opposing opinions stress you out too much, that's when it's no longer healthy. I think you bring some good points of view to the table at times. None of us are perfect, but its always good to be talking and debating to learn more about things from different perspectives.

[Redone]

I am tired of bashing my head against the wall on subjects here politics section. Its no longer fun and its too much work. So I will sign off and go on a sabbatical. If anyone cares to know my opinion about future events, please feel free to PM me.

Could it be because you're off base ? The Congresswoman was a former Republican and a supporter of the 2nd ammendment. This is a tragedy for all Americans and no time to be divisive.

[palango]

Hey don't give up, I for one enjoy reading your passionate arguments. Just don't let opposing opinions stress you out too much, that's when it's no longer healthy. I think you bring some good points of view to the table at times. None of us are perfect, but its always good to be talking and debating to learn more about things from different perspectives.

Thank you. I am not giving up. I am just tired and I have more fun in the health, technical support, parents, and other open topic stuff. besides, the amount of time and energy all this takes (tons of research time) takes away moments from my kids (ages 7,4, and 2). I got get my priorities straight to what is REALLY important in life. Politics and religion will ALWAYS be contentious and head bashing from the left to the right , radical vs progressive, Palin vs some people will continue regardless of this or future events.

Gotta go and give my kids some love. Sorry.