71 replies to this topic

[Bill Z]

Have to agree with Andrea, your snarky condescending crap is too much sometimes.

You do not know if they are exact copies of the originals or not, you are making assumptions that just anything was put on the markers by the gov't. You are likely wrong about that. Cemetery relocation's are very serious.So in your mind, if a cemetery is moved and the markers are recreated, then they are completely open for editing by anyone who may deem them offensive decades later?

Where does it end? How many books and historical things need to be changed to appease whatever group at the moment is offended? Should we also change all tombstone markers that have crosses on them because Atheists may find that offensive?



H I S T O R Y

I'm not making assumptions, Watch the video and see what is on the markers. I posted it above. They say line for line ( except they use the real offensive word instead of "N-word".)

UNKNOWN
Moved from
N-word Hill Cemetery
by
US Government - 1954


Sorry I can't find a way to center justify the text so it looks exactly like the markers.

What part of "by US Government" would lead you to believe this wasn't done by our Government? What part of the above marker would lead you to believe this is a duplicate of an original grave marker?

I know you hate FOX news, but that is where I found the video that shows the markers, watch it for yourself. Then pause it at 1:15

Then tell me what you think the historical value is of these markers.

[mando]

I never once wrote that the relocation wasn't done by the gov't, stop making stuff up.

What part leads you to believe the gov't did not copy the words on the markers exactly as they were on the originals?
Just because they added "by US Gov't"? That's what makes you think they just willy nilly put anything they wanted on the markers?? Really?

The relocation was done by the Army Corps of Engineers in 1954 and they moved a total of seven historical cemeteries, not just the controversially named location.

Here's the facts:
There are 419 people buried at that cemetery.
The bodies were relocated from 7 other cemeteries.
There is only one marker that says "unknown".
Here's a complete list of everyone who is buried there:
http://www.findagrav...r&GScid=2225207

Do you still think the gov't just made up grave markers and put whatever they wanted on them? Do you still think these names have no living relatives who might like their ancestor's graves to remain intact as they were originally? Do you think the name of that location has anything to do with the ethnicity of the body that is buried underneath?

FWIW. I noticed a bunch of duplicate records on that database, so 419 may be an overcounted number.

[ducky]

I never once wrote that the relocation wasn't done by the gov't, stop making stuff up.

What part leads you to believe the gov't did not copy the words on the markers exactly as they were on the originals?
Just because they added "by US Gov't"? That's what makes you think they just willy nilly put anything they wanted on the markers?? Really?

The relocation was done by the Army Corps of Engineers in 1954 and they moved a total of seven historical cemeteries, not just the controversially named location.

Here's the facts:
There are 419 people buried at that cemetery.
The bodies were relocated from 7 other cemeteries.
There is only one marker that says "unknown".
Here's a complete list of everyone who is buried there:
http://www.findagrav...r&GScid=2225207

Do you still think the gov't just made up grave markers and put whatever they wanted on them? Do you still think these names have no living relatives who might like their ancestor's graves to remain intact as they were originally? Do you think the name of that location has anything to do with the ethnicity of the body that is buried underneath?

"The Folsom Telegraph" article said there were three dozen "Unknowns." Anybody know which number is correct?

If the graves had original markers, why wouldn't those have been moved as well instead of making up new markers? Doesn't make sense to me.

[Bill Z]

Ah, you are correct, just re-read the list. My bad.

I'm into history and I know Bill Z is not, so I figured it might help to do some research instead of just making up arguments based entirely on one news blurb from Faux TV. It looks like more research is required. I may head over there tomorrow before work to check it out in person. I'm very curious to find the truth about the origins of these markers in question.

What are the plans to make the corrections? Chisel out the word or make all new markers?
Maybe if they put duct tape over the offensive word, that would make people happy and keep the costs and work load to a minimum.

Well, my bad to. My comments were in referencing to markers that obviously have no information indicating who, time of birth, time of death etc. Markers that anyone can tell were not moved, but were created at the time of relocation.

With that said, I'm going to create one more topic.

[caligirlz]

Well, actually Negro Hill is what those that want to change it want to change it to.
I don't know what word they used back in the Gold Rush days to name that hill. If it was Negro as that was the spanish word for black, then I see nothing wrong with the naming it Negro again. My point is, the markers are not historically linked to the graves, so I see no reason to preserve them. Maybe I'm wrong, if the markers were the original markers from the graves and said "unknown N-word" died such and such year, then I would say that because it is the original headstone, it should be preserved. But I'm pretty sure the real history is, most or all of the graves were not marked with headstones, and the headstones are 1954-1955 creations which means IMO, they are not historically correct markers anyway for the grave, I see no reason to keep them. A 55 year old marker over 150 year old bones has no historical value in preservation IMO. That's my point.

Ok, so I have a little history book published by the Folsom Historical Society, "Images of America, Folsom, Ca." I see reference (p. 61) that the name "Negro Bar" has been around at least since 1851 when Father Ingoldsby conducted church services there. On page 56, there is a picture of the Picker building, now under Folsom Lake, but previously located on Mormon Island. It says, "other towns that once thrived in this area were known by these colorful names: Jenny Lind Flat, Negro Hill, Condemned Bar, Elephant Flat, Rattlesnake Bar, Red Bank, Maple Ridge, Poker Bar and Salmon Falls."

It sounds like Negro Bar was not very big, per the Folsom History Museum, it was "little more than a cluster of tents and shacks." According to other sources ( http://files.usgwarchives.net/ca/eldorado/cemeteries/mormon-island.txt ) the graves were taken from a variety of cemeteries.

[caligirlz]

Well, my bad to. My comments were in referencing to markers that obviously have no information indicating who, time of birth, time of death etc. Markers that anyone can tell were not moved, but were created at the time of relocation.

With that said, I'm going to create one more topic.

What a shame that this heated discussion led to Bill's need to depart from the forum. I'll miss you Bill.

You are so much like my dad. I'll be praying for you so you don't have to go through what he did.

[caligirlz]

That's fine, just hope these scouts don't decide to go and change other ones cos they say Atheist... just cos that might mean they could go to hellll...

The Boy Scouts of America is not a Christian organization. Just because it is based on values, and many Christians participate does not equate "Christian." There are many activities they are involved in that are pagan in origin. A true Christian organization would never allow that degree of compromise to their foundational Biblical beliefs. As a matter of fact, if you do a little research you will find that BSA has actually been compared to the Hitler youth.

You do have the primary tenet of true Christianity down though. Most unbelievers do not understand the Bible, or take most of it out of context. The Bible is meant to stir people up, so glad to hear it's working.

[Redone]

Hardly anyone will ever see those old grave markers, but yet highly popular rap stars like Kayne West use that word daily in the press and that's a-ok

YES ! Let's remove it from 103.5 first.

[old soldier]

you kinda wonder why they moved them in the first place...if the graves were under water it would sort of like being buried at sea.

when your dead your dead...heard a story in a bar one time told by a helicopter pilot who had a deal where he spread folks ashes over the sierra. he would take a bunch at a time.. one day when he got back he discovered a hydraulic leak which has oil coating the side of the plane. when the ashes were tossed they stuck to the side of the plane and instead of being spread over the sierra, they got washed off the plane and into the sewer at the airport.

decision was made to leave the story untold...might have been a good thing to do back in 54...back then you know the n word was not a nono like it is today...

[caligirlz]

when your dead your dead...heard a story in a bar one time told by a helicopter pilot who had a deal where he spread folks ashes over the sierra. he would take a bunch at a time.. one day when he got back he discovered a hydraulic leak which has oil coating the side of the plane. when the ashes were tossed they stuck to the side of the plane and instead of being spread over the sierra, they got washed off the plane and into the sewer at the airport.

Too funny! I imagine that's one story that shouldn't be reported with the details (helicopter company &/or location, dates, etc), otherwise there might be some pretty upset family.... Seriously, as the saying goes "ashes to ashes, dust to dust..." The physical body does not "live on" like the human soul does.

[DavidH]

...
You are smart to notice that it is a reference to a location, not the person in the grave. For all we know every body buried there could be Chinese.

Excellent point!!!