106 replies to this topic

[Chris]

You guys are responsible for a lot of the GW gasses with all that hot air!  All I hear is a bunch of regurgitated talking points, cliches and insults.  At least Joe backs up his opinions.  

 

"We make no difference at all"  Why do we even process our sewage or have catalytic converters on cars?  Was the whole fluorocarbon / ozone thing a hoax?  I wrote a report in high school 40 years ago about the ozone layer being depleted using research from the library.  All this time I thought books, scientific journals and the California UC system were pretty reliable sources.  Thanks for pointing out to me that government funding is linked to education so it is all a hoax and unreliable liberal propaganda.  Now with talk radio and the internet real science is no longer needed.  I guess the Taliban is on the right track.  Limiting education helps get your point of view across.  Get out the burqas!

Still no facts in your rant above Apester...  Did you notice the graph above on CO2 percentage vs temperature over time....?   And comparing Joe, myself, and others who don't believe in AGW to the Taliban (you left out Hitler by the way) and claiming that we are of "limited" education is a typical progressive tactic when you know you are losing the argument.  Maybe type in all caps next time so we will know you are shouting at us.   Post up some facts or it is time to collect your marbles and go home....  Chris

[2 Aces]

I am reminded of a quote that *may* be appropriate regarding arguing with the cult-like AGW believers who are in denial about the fact that it has been proven that AGW is based on false, fraudulent, compromised, and manipulated "science":

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

~George Bernard Shaw

[Chris]

Oh, and from yesterday.....

 

 

EXCLUSIVE: NOAA Relies On ‘Compromised’ Thermometers That Inflate US Warming Trend

 

 

http://dailycaller.c...-warming-trend/

[apeman45]

I love a good debate but the constant ridiculing only makes you look ridiculous.  So there was a drought in 1316?  That has absolutely 0 to do with climate change debate.  "The Third Horseman" takes no stance on climate change but should be a lesson of the extreme weather events we are capable of experiencing in the very near future if we do nothing.  Thanks for pointing that out.  It should be required reading for those who don't think GW and it's consequences are real. But that was just a minor event compared to what is happening worldwide right now.  We are talking about scientifically measured changes over a historically unprecedented very short timeframe and in the context of science it has NEVER happened before.  Sure there has been warming and cooling over thousands of years.  You can not debate that this is an extreme event over a very short time.  You can question the cause or the possible consequences. 

 

Debating is not calling me a libtard, an Obummer lover, a brainwashed cultist, a hypocrite, a brainwashed progressive among others.  I could cite the facts of 97% of the scientists worldwide but you guys would just say they are "paid" scientists or in the pockets of politicians.  Why should I believe the 3%? Using basic math I would be citing 97 sources and you would cite 3, or 9700 sources to your 300.  

 

By the way the correct term is climate change not GW.

 

Any Monty Python fans out there?  The argument sketch

[The Average Joe]

There you go with the 97% fallacy again. Whatever. Still not one answer to the questions I posed. CO2 forcing is a THEORY. Unfortunately, it is a bad one propped up by bad data, bad models and a good PR

[Chris]

Hey Apester, three words,  pot kettle black......  Chris

[Chris]

I love a good debate but the constant ridiculing only makes you look ridiculous.  So there was a drought in 1316?  That has absolutely 0 to do with climate change debate.  "The Third Horseman" takes no stance on climate change but should be a lesson.............

Again, not facts, not from you or anybody else on your AGW side.  Prove it or shut up....!  Links, date, etc....   None from you.   AGW a proposed theory for sure but you can't prove it.  You guys call us out on name calling but yet do the exact same thing, Joe and myself give you links, charts, data, etc.    You give us progressive, left wing, elect hillary for sure, go Obummer rhetoric and false science.  There are a lot of folks here I am sure who do not chime in but are thinking you AGW folks are off of your nuts and have a political agenda to put forward, again, and again, and again, just to keep us busy as you so said about the Average Joe.........   Tax us more, keep us depressed about our carbon output........  Make us guilty for living at all...?    Look at the big picture please, do your homework, do the science and you will see that you are very mistaken, severely mistaken indeed.  You are taking a polaroid picture of the climate in your brief time of human life and the rest of us are looking and millions, and billions of years and laughing at you.  So are the other planets who got warm and cold, lost their water (think Mars) and atmosphere mostly in the last few billions of years.........    It's the Sun stupid....!   It is just so sad to see you AGW folks so uneducated, so misinformed, and so influenced by the radical environmental progressive left that you no longer think for your own and question what you are told.   Hopefully 20 years from now, when we are declining into the little ice age we are now in even more you will come back to this thread and admit you were wrong, so very wrong.   I think you won't.   Chris

[The Average Joe]

Questions that need answers before we can even debate "solutions" to AGW

 

What is the optimal temperature for Earth? Why?

 

What is the optimal CO2 percentage? Why?

 

What effect does CO2 have on the climate?

 

What effect does lunisolar and planetary progression have on climate?

 

What effect does the change of axial tilt of the Earth have on climate?

 

What effect does orbital eccentricity have on climate?

 

What effect do solar cycles have on climate?

 

What impact do cosmic rays have on cloud formation?

 

What other things affect cloud coverage?

 

What long term effects do the Pacific Decadal Oscillation and the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation have on climate?

 

How does changing biomass and civilization change the albedo of the Earth?

 

These are just a few of the questions that must be answered before we can claim climate change is caused by man.

[2 Aces]

Uh oh...this is *really* going to upset the AGW fraudsters/cult members. The LIE is slowly being exposed...

http://www.judicialw...e-data-scandal/

 

[The Average Joe]

Again, SCIENCE does not require a congressional subpoena or a FOIA lawsuit to turn over data and methodology. Junk science does.

[apeman45]

Hey Chris my Bro.  Thanks so much for coming around and backing my argument that climate change is real.  Your quote below is right on!

 

"You are taking a polaroid picture of the climate in your brief time of human life and the rest of us are looking and millions, and billions of years and laughing at you.  So are the other planets who got warm and cold, lost their water (think Mars) and atmosphere mostly in the last few billions of years.........    It's the Sun stupid....!"

 

This is exactly what I've been trying to get across to the GW deniers. Changes we are seeing in my brief time of human life has never happened before.  What normally takes "millions and billions" of years is happening in our lifetime.  And that great book you referenced, "The Third Horseman" is a warning to what will happen now on a much greater scale if we do nothing.  More great input from you Chris.  Thanks my brother.

 

I learned about the greenhouse effect in middle school.  Pretty simple to recreate in our Folsom summers.  Roll up your windows and notice how the sun heats up your car pretty fast.  The suns energy can't all be reflected out of the car and is trapped in the form of heat.  Now put that very simple example on a global level.  We need the sun and it's heat.  It does vary how much of the suns energy is retained by our atmosphere and how much escapes back into space.  If you put a lot of crap in the atmosphere, whether it be CO2 or any airborne pollutants, then we retain more heat.  It's really not that hard to understand.  You are right Chris, it is the sun stupid!!

 

Basically whatever the cause it really boils down to future generations.  We can choose to continue to treat our environment like a sewer and yea in our lifetimes we will probably be ok.  The earth is a closed ecosystem and eventually something has got to give.  Even my dog knows enough to crap outside but we don't.

 

I'm a parent and I choose to not leave an overflowing toilet to my kid and grandkids.

[apeman45]

Questions that need answers before we can even debate "solutions" to AGW

 

What is the optimal temperature for Earth? Why?

 

What is the optimal CO2 percentage? Why?

 

What effect does CO2 have on the climate?

 

What effect does lunisolar and planetary progression have on climate?

 

What effect does the change of axial tilt of the Earth have on climate?

 

What effect does orbital eccentricity have on climate?

 

What effect do solar cycles have on climate?

 

What impact do cosmic rays have on cloud formation?

 

What other things affect cloud coverage?

 

What long term effects do the Pacific Decadal Oscillation and the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation have on climate?

 

How does changing biomass and civilization change the albedo of the Earth?

 

These are just a few of the questions that must be answered before we can claim climate change is caused by man.

Good questions Joe.  They have all been studied extensively by scientists for decades which is why we have worldwide acknowledgement of mans' detrimental impact on climate.

 

Here's a list of a few shoddy organizations made up of a bunch of scientists with PHDs and lifetimes of research who somehow all were politically motivated or sold out to come to the same conclusion that climate change is real.

 

(Scientific Organizations That Hold the Position That Climate Change Has Been Caused by Human Action)

1. Academia Chilena de Ciencias, Chile
2. Academia das Ciencias de Lisboa, Portugal
3. Academia de Ciencias de la República Dominicana
4. Academia de Ciencias Físicas, Matemáticas y Naturales de Venezuela
5. Academia de Ciencias Medicas, Fisicas y Naturales de Guatemala 
6. Academia Mexicana de Ciencias,Mexico
7. Academia Nacional de Ciencias de Bolivia
8. Academia Nacional de Ciencias del Peru
9. Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal
10. Académie des Sciences, France
11. Academies of Arts, Humanities and Sciences of Canada
12. Academy of Athens
13. Academy of Science of Mozambique
14. Academy of Science of South Africa
15. Academy of Sciences for the Developing World (TWAS)
16. Academy of Sciences Malaysia
17. Academy of Sciences of Moldova
18. Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic
19. Academy of Sciences of the Islamic Republic of Iran
20. Academy of Scientific Research and Technology, Egypt
21. Academy of the Royal Society of New Zealand
22. Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Italy
23. Africa Centre for Climate and Earth Systems Science
24. African Academy of Sciences
25. Albanian Academy of Sciences
26. Amazon Environmental Research Institute
27. American Academy of Pediatrics
28. American Anthropological Association
29. American Association for the Advancement of Science
30. American Association of State Climatologists (AASC)
31. American Association of Wildlife Veterinarians 
32. American Astronomical Society
33. American Chemical Society
34. American College of Preventive Medicine
35. American Fisheries Society
36. American Geophysical Union
37. American Institute of Biological Sciences
38. American Institute of Physics
39. American Meteorological Society
40. American Physical Society
41. American Public Health Association
42. American Quaternary Association
43. American Society for Microbiology
44. American Society of Agronomy
45. American Society of Civil Engineers
46. American Society of Plant Biologists
47. American Statistical Association
48. Association of Ecosystem Research Centers
49. Australian Academy of Science
50. Australian Bureau of Meteorology
51. Australian Coral Reef Society
52. Australian Institute of Marine Science
53. Australian Institute of Physics
54. Australian Marine Sciences Association
55. Australian Medical Association
56. Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society 
57. Bangladesh Academy of Sciences
58. Botanical Society of America
59. Brazilian Academy of Sciences
60. British Antarctic Survey
61. Bulgarian Academy of Sciences
62. California Academy of Sciences
63. Cameroon Academy of Sciences
64. Canadian Association of Physicists
65. Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences
66. Canadian Geophysical Union
67. Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
68. Canadian Society of Soil Science
69. Canadian Society of Zoologists
70. Center for International Forestry Research
71. Chinese Academy of Sciences
72. Colombian Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences
73. Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) (Australia)
74. Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research
75. Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences
76. Crop Science Society of America
77. Cuban Academy of Sciences
78. Delegation of the Finnish Academies of Science and Letters
79. Ecological Society of America
80. Ecological Society of Australia
81. Environmental Protection Agency
82. European Academy of Sciences and Arts
83. European Federation of Geologists
84. European Geosciences Union
85. European Physical Society
86. European Science Foundation
87. Federation of American Scientists
88. French Academy of Sciences
89. Geological Society of America
90. Geological Society of Australia
91. Geological Society of London
92. Georgian Academy of Sciences 
93. German Academy of Natural Scientists Leopoldina 
94. Ghana Academy of Arts and Sciences
95. Indian National Science Academy
96. Indonesian Academy of Sciences  
97. Institute of Ecology and Environmental Management
98. Institute of Marine Engineering, Science and Technology
99. Institute of Professional Engineers New Zealand
100. Institution of Mechanical Engineers, UK
101. InterAcademy Council
102. International Alliance of Research Universities
103. International Arctic Science Committee
104. International Association for Great Lakes Research
105. International Council for Science
106. International Council of Academies of Engineering and Technological Sciences
107. International Research Institute for Climate and Society
108. International Union for Quaternary Research
109. International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics
110. International Union of Pure and Applied Physics
111. Islamic World Academy of Sciences
112. Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities
113. Kenya National Academy of Sciences
114. Korean Academy of Science and Technology
115. Kosovo Academy of Sciences and Arts
116. l'Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal
117. Latin American Academy of Sciences
118. Latvian Academy of Sciences
119. Lithuanian Academy of Sciences
120. Madagascar National Academy of Arts, Letters, and Sciences
121. Mauritius Academy of Science and Technology
122. Montenegrin Academy of Sciences and Arts
123. National Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences, Argentina
124. National Academy of Sciences of Armenia
125. National Academy of Sciences of the Kyrgyz Republic
126. National Academy of Sciences, Sri Lanka
127. National Academy of Sciences, United States of America
128. National Aeronautics and Space Administration 
129. National Association of Geoscience Teachers
130. National Association of State Foresters
131. National Center for Atmospheric Research 
132. National Council of Engineers Australia
133. National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research, New Zealand
134. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
135. National Research Council
136. National Science Foundation
137. Natural England
138. Natural Environment Research Council, UK
139. Natural Science Collections Alliance
140. Network of African Science Academies
141. New York Academy of Sciences
142. Nicaraguan Academy of Sciences
143. Nigerian Academy of Sciences
144. Norwegian Academy of Sciences and Letters
145. Oklahoma Climatological Survey
146. Organization of Biological Field Stations
147. Pakistan Academy of Sciences
148. Palestine Academy for Science and Technology
149. Pew Center on Global Climate Change
150. Polish Academy of Sciences
151. Romanian Academy
152. Royal Academies for Science and the Arts of Belgium
153. Royal Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences of Spain
154. Royal Astronomical Society, UK
155. Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters
156. Royal Irish Academy
157. Royal Meteorological Society (UK)
158. Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences
159. Royal Netherlands Institute for Sea Research
160. Royal Scientific Society of Jordan
161. Royal Society of Canada
162. Royal Society of Chemistry, UK
163. Royal Society of the United Kingdom
164. Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences
165. Russian Academy of Sciences
166. Science and Technology, Australia 
167. Science Council of Japan
168. Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research
169. Scientific Committee on Solar-Terrestrial Physics
170. Scripps Institution of Oceanography
171. Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts
172. Slovak Academy of Sciences
173. Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts
174. Society for Ecological Restoration International
175. Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics
176. Society of American Foresters  
177. Society of Biology (UK)  
178. Society of Systematic Biologists
179. Sudan Academy of Sciences
180. Sudanese National Academy of Science
181. Tanzania Academy of Sciences
182. The Wildlife Society (international)
183. Turkish Academy of Sciences
184. Uganda National Academy of Sciences
185. Union of German Academies of Sciences and Humanities
186. United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
187. University Corporation for Atmospheric Research
188. Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
189. World Association of Zoos and Aquariums
190. World Federation of Public Health Associations
191. World Forestry Congress
192. World Health Organization
193. Zimbabwe Academy of Sciences

[The Average Joe]

With all due respect to the Zimbabwe Academy of Sciences, NONE of those questions have been answered definitively.  Without quantifiable answers to those questions, the whole AGW scare is without merit. If you can't quantify how much of an effect any/each particular variable has, your models will be garbage with a margin of error outside of observed measurements. Kind of like what is happening right now (see IPCC models).

 

The original thread was about the bastardization of science by self-identified high moral ground.  The same is true with the political bastardization of science. The truth is the truth. All the manipulations in the world will not change the truth. It may hide it for awhile, but reality ALWAYS wins. 

 

BTW, I don't give a rats arse who supports something because I'm not  mindless. I'm sure I could dig up a list of "experts " and organizations that supported sub-prime lending. I want to see the science.

 

Now if you'd care to link any source with answers to ANY of those questions, I'll be happy to read them.

 

I'll even add a few more.

How must effect does explosive volcanism have on global cooling?

 

How much effect does effusive volcanism have on global warming?

 

How much does ozone depletion contribute to global warming?

 

And more importantly, how much does volcanism contribute to ozone depletion?

 

I can keep going if you like, but I'd like to see ONE attempt at an answer first.

[apeman45]

Joe those are simple questions that require science to answer.  I will give a quick answer to those right off the top of my head without even using google but my rudimentary understanding of geology.  Volcanology is something that interests me a lot. All my references will be of places I have personally visited and learned about without moral prejudice!  Did you know that Lassen National Park which is practically in our backyard is one of the only places in the world that has representations of all 4 volcano types?  Did you know the long valley caldera near Mono Lake is considered to be one of the 2 most likely areas in the US to have a MAJOR volcanic event?  Yellowstone is the other one.  Mammoth has a scenic bypass which geologists refer to as the volcanic escape route because that is what it was built for when Mammoth Mountain erupts.

 

Explosive Volcanism and global cooling - these eruptions obviously release a lot of energy and particles into the atmosphere in a very short amount of time. Mt St Helens was an example of one of these and it was tiny in geologic terms and had a short term impact on climate.  Now Mt Mazama which exploded to form Crater Lake in Oregon spread debris across 4 states and it's plume stayed aloft for years and did block out the UV rays of the sun and caused some global cooling until the particles dissipated.  We have not had an event of this magnitude in our lifetimes and hopefully won't.  It's not a question of when but if.   This creates the opposite of the greenhouse effect by reflecting the majority of the suns UV rays back into space resulting in cooling at the surface level.  Volcanoes are erupting all the time worldwide but we haven't had a super eruption that would impact climate beyond the local level in thousands of years.

 

Effusive Volcanism and it's impact on global warming.  These are the shield volcanoes like the ones in Hawaii that are far less explosive with a very fluid magma and longer eruptions.  I have stood on the top of Haleakula in Maui and Mana Loa in Hawaii National Park while it was erupting.  I was able to get close enough to a vent to feel the heat.  Very awesome.  Obviously these types of volcanoes emit more gasses into the atmosphere and of course these effect global warming but the volume of gasses is microscopic compared to the amount of gas man puts into the atmosphere.  They have been doing it for millions of years and scientists have been able to study this impact through tree rings, core samples of glaciers in the arctic and carbon dating and this has shown no volcanic event that has had as big an impact in such a short time as what is going on right now as the result of the industrial revolution.

 

Ozone Depletion and global warming?  Again back to the greenhouse effect.  Less Ozone means more UV rays reach the earth resulting in warming at the surface.  We also see a lot more skin cancer and the invention of SPF 80 sunblock as opposed to the 8 sunblock I used 50 years ago.  A good example of a manmade impact of climate change.  Now you might say if there is less ozone then why aren't the UV rays just reflected back to space?  As you know you can still get burned on a cloudy day by those pesky UV rays.  They can penetrate the clouds but the reduced ozone allows more in.  The atmosphere still holds in the same percentage of UV rays reflected off the earths surface but there is more of them penetrating through the reduced ozone layer so the net result is heating on the surface.

 

How much does ozone result in ozone depletion?  I don't know.  My simple mind tells me that with the multitude of gasses entering the atmosphere from volcanoes a similar chemical reaction that cause fluorocarbons to combine with ozone particles resulting in depletion is more than likely from volcanic gasses.  

 

This is all pretty basic well studied science that even a retard like me can understand and remember from high school.  I swear to you I did not reference the internet for any of this information.  This is all off the top of my head from my personal experiences and interests.  I do not have a science degree but I do get excited reading a scientific journal occasionally.  I know that on extremely rare occasions a researcher has entered false data to get published.  I do not discredit all science because of a very few frauds.  Facts are facts.  Most science nerds don't enter the field for money or politics.  The hacks may be forced to work for a political organization to sway public opinion with junk science but the brilliant minds belong to the organizations I referred to in my last post.

 

I wish I could be a scientist - those people are geniuses.  I'm not nearly that smart but smart enough to sort through overwhelming data and FACTS that support the fact that mankind has a MAJOR impact on climate.  My beliefs are not politically motivated.  

 

Science Rocks!!!

[Chris]

Hey Apeman, the whole AGW argument is that it is made made and released CO2 to the atmosphere.  Simply not true.  Mankind has virtually no impact on our climate or weather around the world except in micro climates like paved over urban areas or deforested areas etc.  Again, the Sun is probably responsible for most of our weather if not all.  You AGW fan boys leave the Sun out of all of your "proofs".   And since you ignored the chart I posted previously here I'll post it up again.  This one chart alone makes you and any organization on your long list above look silly.  Please study the CO2 ppm line vs the average global temperature line.    Apeman, we are in a slight warming period after a mini ice age and we are most likely heading into another mini ice age.   I hope you get a nice warm jacket for Christmas, you're gonna need it.   Chris