159 replies to this topic

[john]

isn't there a traffic circle in front of Folsom High off of Prairie City? isn't that what it's there for?

[tony]

stevethe...

The school made changes to the driveway last year so it is easier to get in and out. I find it hard to believe that the vice-principal is discouraging people from pulling in. Even if it is the unofficial policy of the police to ignore people stopping in the bike lane, it is the OFFICIAL policy that it is illegal. Laws are laws, regardless of whether someone is standing there to enforce them. It's called personal responsibility.

I'm sorry it's so difficult to drop off your kids at the HS. How long does it take? Five, ten minutes? Does that therefore make it OK to ignore traffic laws? It seems that that's what this thread is all about.

Yes, your kids can walk or ride a bike or take the bus (it would have been much easier, of course, if they didn't build the school on teh edge of town on the far side of a 6-lane arterial). Of course, one of the reasons so few kids do is because their parents are afraid to let them, what with the other crazy parents parking in the bike lanes and ignoring the speed limit and all. BTW, I regularly bike through there during the drop of time (usually only on Thursdays and Fridays), and there are a few Intel folks who do as well. But most people are too scared to ride on streets like Iron Point, even with bike lanes (see two sentences above).

[tessieca]

There are closer to 2500 students at the high school, with about 2900 expected for next school year. This year's freshman class was about 665, and you know they need rides. The walking distance is up to two miles for high school students. If they live farther away than that, then a bus is available. Not too many kids take the bus in high school -- it's probably not cool. Us high school parents could let our kids walk, but we are afraid of traffic, crossing intersections such as Prairie City/Iron Point where everyone runs the red light and blocks the box. We are also afraid of kidnappings. A better location would have helped but we can't waste a lot of time with coulda, shoulda, woulda. There is a traffic circle primarily for busses (off of Prairie City). There is also through traffic in the staff parking lot (enter on Iron Point). People do not want to get in there and get stuck in stopped traffic while others in line ahead of them sit around waiting for a child to arrive or depart the vehicle. Bottom line: not a lot of options. We pick up near the PC/IP intersection to avoid the majority of the traffic.

Pet traffic peeves: 1) parking on sidewalks -- this became more clearly disturbing when we had to wheel a child around in a wheelchair for 6 weeks. Mommies with baby buggies, kids trying to walk to school, etc., have to walk around these impediments. The street is for cars, not the sidewalks. 2) people driving through crosswalks just as soon as a pedestrian makes enough room for them to pass. The law says you must wait until they are OUT of the crosswalk. Try a little patience. I can't tell you how many kids I've seen nearly bumped by these drivers. Me too, but I can stand up for myself. 3) people traveling at 40 in a 55 zone, or 25 in a 40 zone.

[Steve Heard]

Hey Terry and Tony

I must admit, I baited you a little. My daughter doesn't go to Folsom High right now (let's say she's on 'temporary assignment' at another school), but will be back there September.

I'm just telling you the way it is. Yes, the vice principal has physically blocked the entrance to the parking lot. I phoned in a complaint about it because not only was it unprofessional, making her look like a nutcase, but it also forces more cars onto the street.

FHS is not very tolerant of kids arriving late for school, and provide little supervision before school. I do not think it's appropriate to let a teenage girl walk to school, particularly since the school is 3 miles away, and we just saw video of a kidnapping which resulted in murder. I'll not risk my daughter's life so people can feel good about not stopping in the 'no stopping'. There was a much publicized case here in town, when a guy tried to grab a girl off the street on Blue Ravine, right in front of the fire station. Sorry to inconvenience anyone who is bothered by the site of parents dropping their kids off!

By the way, the bike lane is far enough from the curb to allow for cars. The lane does not get blocked.

There are two police officers stationed at FHS. I know them. They don't ticket people because they know the parents have no other choice.

Twice a day, there are far more cars in the area than is managable. Parents deal with it by stopping in the 'no stopping' zone, and wait for our kids.

Walk a mile in my shoes....

[folsomBlondie]

You are right Steve. If my kids are girls, I will not let them walk home. Period. Not even in this relatively safe city. Our society changed and there are so many nutso out there who are ready for action and nothing to lose.

[tony]

QUOTE (stevethedad @ Feb 10 2004, 08:31 PM)

By the way, the bike lane is far enough from the curb to allow for cars. The lane does not get blocked. Walk a mile in my shoes....

Stevethedad: Ride a mile in my shoes. A car stopped in the bike lane forces a bicyclists to merge into the traffic lane (where the cars are going 55 mph in a 25 mph zone). Ever heard of the "door zone"? That's the three feet to the left of a parked car that a cyclists must stay out of in order to avoid getting "doored".

I repeat, it is illegal to stop in the bike lane, regardless of what the police are willing to ignore. Think a little about the safety of the kids who do walk and ride their bikes to school. That's why the bike lanes are posted "No Stopping", not just to be an annoyance to lazy parents.

As for the fear of kidnapping. Get real! That's a very convenient and way overused excuse to justify chauferring your kids everywhere. The risk of a high school kid getting kidnapped is for all practical purposes zero. And stranger abductions are extremely rare at any age. Do you let your 16, 17 or 18 year old drive a car? There is virtually nothing more dangerous for your teenager to do, other than riding with some other teenager, or worse, one who has been drinking. Yet we think nothing of letting 16-year-olds get their license, and, in wealthy suburbs like Folsom, more often than not, give them their own car to boot! These are real risks we should be worried about (your insurance company certainly is). And as for the "new world" we live in, violent crime is at it's lowest point since the early 70s, having dropped precipitously since the mid-80s. And stranger kidnapping (most kidnapping is done by "friends" or relatives such as estranged parents) is no more common than it ever was. The only difference is that now you hear about it every time one happens anywhere in the USA, whereas 30 years ago you only heard about it if it was local. Same goes for crime in general. It's time we all got some perspective about the risks we take in our daily lives and quit letting sensationalist TV news scare us behind locked, into gated "anti-communities" and off the sidewalks. Remember one statistic: 40,000 people every year die in traffic accidents in the US, and many more are in accidents on city streets than on freeways. Only a handful of kidnapping happen every year, and as often as not, the victims have been taken from their homes or cars, not off of the street.

But, hey, if you want to drive your daughter to school for her protection, go right ahead. But drop her off at the designated spot on campus, not in the street. After all, who knows what could happen to her between the curb and the front door of the school? Most likely thing would be getting hit by some other impatient parent's car.

[Steve Heard]

Tony

Pretty good come back, but....

I have ridden more than a few miles in your shoes. I rode from San Francisco to Los Angeles to raise awareness, and money, for AIDS related charities. I know all about the dangers and inconveniences and insults bikers have to put up with. I am not unsympathetic.

I am not certain what area you are talking about, but the area I am talking about has a bike lane next to it, and it is far enough from the curb for a car to fit, so the bike lane isn't blocked at all.

I am telling you that the parents aren't lazy. I know they would love to be able to pull into the parking lot and drop their kids as close to the front door of the school as possible. They have been stopped and forced to drive around the area by school employees and occasionally, police. They have to deal with the Intel folks in a hurry to get to work, and the thousands rushing to get to highway 80. One could get stuck for 20 minutes or more trying to negotiate the traffic circle and parking lots, trying to avoid cars and kids. It ain't as easy as you think.

The same thing happens on a smaller scale at Folsom Middle. There, the huge staff parking lot is off limits to parents. There is another lot and circle to drop off in, but it get's congested, while the staff parking lot remains empty, usually with a staff member patrolling the entrance to shoo away parents.

As far as the threat of kidnapping is concerned, you are either one of the parents who stick their heads in the sand and hope it won't happen to their kids, or you don't have any young kids to worry about.

We can't protect our kids from every danger, but there are psychos and perverts on the streets. The stranger abduction is a crime of opportunity, and if a nutcase sees a kid alone and unprotected, he may take the chance.

Criminals are getting more and more violent, more daring and more heartless. Ask a veteran cop. I am sure that he/she can tell you that over the years, crimes have gotten more gruesome and more cold-blooded.

I'm not going to tell my kids to go out and take their chances, so that people won't be bothered by me dropping them off at school, while they are rushing to get wherever they need to be.

Get real? Ask the parents of the kids who have been kidnapped if it was real or not. Ask the parents of the girl who was forced to run to the fire station on Blue Ravine for protection if it was real.

Then you talk about car accidents. Do you know when most occur? It's in the morning, when people are in a rush to get to work. They don't pay attention. They run red lights. The speed through neighborhoods and past schools, probably cursing the damned kids who are slowing them down, while they read, put on makeup, drink coffee and talk on their cell phones.

I witnessed a kid riding his bike to school. He swerved to avoid a truck backing out of a driveway. The driver never saw him, and the kid never saw the parked car he slammed into and flew over the hood of. I picked him up, put him into my car and took him to Mercy Hospital.

After that episode, there wasn't a chance of me letting my kids ride to school.

The school is there to stay, and so is the traffic. Nothing will be resolved by bitching about it. We all have to share the road. Sorry for the inconvenience, but I am going to drive my kids to school as long as I am able.

[folsomBlondie]

QUOTE (stevethedad @ Feb 10 2004, 10:41 PM)

As far as the threat of kidnapping is concerned, you are either one of the parents who stick their heads in the sand and hope it won't happen to their kids, or you don't have any young kids to worry about. We can't protect our kids from every danger, but there are psychos and perverts on the streets. The stranger abduction is a crime of opportunity, and if a nutcase sees a kid alone and unprotected, he may take the chance. Criminals are getting more and more violent, more daring and more heartless. Ask a veteran cop. I am sure that he/she can tell you that over the years, crimes have gotten more gruesome and more cold-blooded. I'm not going to tell my kids to go out and take their chances, so that people won't be bothered by me dropping them off at school, while they are rushing to get wherever they need to be.   Get real? Ask the parents of the kids who have been kidnapped if it was real or not. Ask the parents of the girl who was forced to run to the fire station on Blue Ravine for protection if it was real. Then you talk about car accidents. Do you know when most occur? It's in the morning, when people are in a rush to get to work. They don't pay attention. They run red lights. The speed through neighborhoods and past schools, probably cursing the damned kids who are slowing them down, while they read, put on makeup, drink coffee and talk on their cell phones. I witnessed a kid riding his bike to school. He swerved to avoid a truck backing out of a driveway. The driver never saw him, and the kid never saw the parked car he slammed into and flew over the hood of. I picked him up, put him into my car and took him to Mercy Hospital.

You got this one right Steve. Tony's head is in the sand. Society has changed so much. Even if the chance of getting kidnap is .00000000000001%, I am not taking chances with MY kids. Period. And yes, crimes are getting more violent, criminals are getting bolder - and they have cars too. And most of all, in general drivers are getting more reckless. Get real here.

[Terry]

So if there are so many parents driving their kids to school, why not round up all those students in your neighborhood and carpool. If everyone brought 3 or 4 students to school, wouldn't that reduce the traffic to a third or a quarter of what it is now?

And what about bus service? Either school district or city? Oh, that's right, that's not "cool", and we wouldn't want our children to suffer from the low-self-esteem if their peers had to see them riding a bus.............

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[folsomBlondie]

QUOTE (Terry @ Feb 11 2004, 08:46 AM)

So if there are so many parents driving their kids to school, why not round up all those students in your neighborhood and carpool. If everyone brought 3 or 4 students to school, wouldn't that reduce the traffic to a third or a quarter of what it is now? And what about bus service? Either school district or city? Oh, that's right, that's not "cool", and we wouldn't want our children to suffer from the low-self-esteem if their peers had to see them riding a bus............. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Not a bad idea Terry. Have a nice day.

[Steve Heard]

Terry

Don't assume that I am part of the problem. We carpool both of our kids. I've had as many as six kids in my car at one time. A lot of other parents do, too. The problem would be worse if we didn't. Imagine, instead of 500 to 700 cars arriving at 8am, we'd have 1000 to 2000.

As for the bus, again, I'm guessing you must not have school age children, because the bus is definitely cool.

It provides a chance for the kids to be together, relatively unsupervised, before going home. The bus driver is concerned about the roadway. No parents. No teachers. Not home yet. Many kids WANT to take the bus.

It is a known fact, I reported it and was told police were aware of it, and doing their best to control it, that the town drug dealers often meet at some of the busier bus stops, particularly the ones on Riley, to sell their wares to the kids before they get home.

Add to that their exposure while walking to or waiting at the bus stop to the streets. Again, you may be willing to take the chance and play the odds on the safety of Folsom kids, but I am not.

Most parents in Folsom are doing their best.

[tony]

stevethedad: So, if I understand correctly, you aer dropping your kids off near the SE corner of Prairie City and Iron Point, either in the right turn only lane on PC or the acceleration lane on IP. Those are the only two places where there is a bike lane that is not incorporated into the shoulder. In either case, you are now stopping illegally in a traffic lane, risking a rear end collision, as traffic ni these lanes does not have to stop, or worse, encouraging traffic behind you to swerve into the bike lane ni an effort to get around you. This doesn't seem like a particularly safe thing for the children you are dropping off either.

The bottom line is that in the interest of your convenience and the perceived safety of your children, you are willing to break the law on a daily basis and endanger other parents children who are out there biking and walking to school. Rationalize all you want (and I'm glad you carpool), but by conciously deciding that the law does not apply to you, you are a very big part of the problem of poor traffic etiquette (the topic of this post).

So, do you ever let your high school age children out of your sight? Do they go out with friends on weekends? Do you let them ride a bike (I know, it's not cool for HS kids to ride bikes)?

If traffic is so bad in this city that parents won't let their high school aged kids walk to school (the same aprents who will let them get behind the wheel of a 400lb, 200 HP car), then maybe we need to do something about the traffic instead of just throwing up our hands and saying it's too dangerous. The city is just beginning a process to create a pedestrian master plan for the city. If you think it's not safe to walk, then get inmvolved and help make it safer. Have you ever heard of the Safe Routes to School Program? Probably not, because Folsom schools haven't participated. Walking school buses? Heck, how about real school buses? These are some of the solutions, but they won't happen if parents just throw up their hands and say, "It's too dangerous", as they create a self-fulfilling prophesy by insisting on chauferring their kids everywhere. Ever consider what you're doing to the air your kids are breathing by driving them everywhere? We have some of the worst air in the country here in Folsom, and the majority of the pollution comes from the tailpipes of cars (yeah, I know, a lot of those cars are in the Bay area).

According to the CDC, there were 115 childhood abductions by strangers in 1999, compared to 204,000 abducted by family members. According to the NHTSA, motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for children age 2 to 14, accounting for over 2000 deaths per year. Your kids are more than 15 times as likely to die in an auto accident as they are to be kidnapped by a stranger. Check the Folsom police department. How many abductions have there been in Folsom in the past five years? (I can't remember one) How many traffic fatalities? (I can think of several in the past couple of months). And how many pedestrain and bicyclists fatalities in Folsom. Again, I don't think there have been any, although one reason, of course, is that we've scared most of the bicyclists and pedestrians off of the streets.

If Folsom has a such a great quality of life, then why is everyone afraid to leave the illusory safety of their locked cars and houses and get out and enjoy it? Something is very wrong here.

BTW, we do have children, but they are too young to ride a bike without training wheels. With the exception of long-distance travel, they do, however, travel more miles by bike than by car, and quite safely, I might add, thanks in large part to a great, if not quite finished, system of bike trails here in Folsom.

[Terry]

I don't have to assume that you - stevethedad - are part of the problem, because you are simply by virtue of dropping your kids off at school. This avenue of the discussion began because you and others identified the "problem" of traffic at the high school, and indeed you're in the traffic, thus you ARE part of the problem.

I don't mean to continue to bash you, but you can't just point out a problem and then refuse to acknowledge your own contribution to that problem. I'm not trying to tell you how to transport (or not transport) your kids, I'm just saying you can't complain about a problem to which you're contributing, without coming up with solutions that deal with the problem, as seen for ALL eyes. We all have the obligation to obey traffic laws regardless of how inconvenient they may be. So, you either obey the traffic laws and get stuck in a legitimate location and the resulting traffic line to drop off/pick up your children or you take it upon yourself to have entitlements to conveniences because you deem them to be correct for you, regardless of the safety and public good that was determined to be for the benefit of all others.

Sorry, this is where we get the attitude affecting the current traffic un-ettiquette - "laws don't apply to me unless they're convenient".

And yes, while my kids are grown, (most recent Folsom High grad was 1998) they walked to elementary school, rode bikes to middle school, and walked, rode the bus or drove themselves or with friends to high school.

Certainly I wish the world, and Folsom, was a kinder place, but that again does not endow you with entitlements to disobey laws.........okay, I'm done with my broken record..............

[Steve Heard]

Tony and Terry

Although, as I said, my daughter isn't going to Folsom High right now, so I don't currently have to deal with the issue, I will face it in September, and I sympathize with the parents who do have to deal with this on a daily basis.

Tony, the area I am talking about is Iron Point at, I believe, Grover. There is bike lane along Grover, and along Iron Point, and Prairie City.

It doesn't really matter, though, because every inch of curb space surrounding the school is marked as bike lane, and 'no stopping'

When FHS was planned, who knew that it would be so overwhelmed in capacity that it would require a new school be built within a few short years, and that cars would be spilling into the streets because of it.

Laws get changed, or go uninforced, not simply because of inconvenience, but because the spirit under which they were created does not reflect the reality of today.

Suggesting that the kids walk to school makes as much sense as suggesting everyone in Folsom walk to work. That would take care of that Riley Street traffic, wouldn't it. This isn't Davis, and we although we have great recreational bike trails, it is not practical for everyone to bike to work or school.

The bike lanes around the school were put there before the school was built, and the school was built before 2300 to 2500 students enrolled. In fact, the school opened in 1998, and in 2000 the need for for another high school was apparent.

Several parents I know have talked about and wondered how to get the no stopping signs taken down so that parents can legally drop off and wait for their kids. Actually, that might be the best solution, along with slowing down the traffic on those streets.

Before we do that, how about if we all tolerate the parents who have to drop off their kids, and not assume that they are selfish or lazy scofflaws. They are stuck in a crappy situation that will go away once the new school opens.

Besides, it only happens twice a day, for a bout 1/2 hour at a time. You will notice that the bike lanes are completely empty until then.

[tony]

Anybody: How do I quote pieces of someone else's post?