219 replies to this topic

[tony]

Terry: I don't think the explanation is quite so simple. My experience has been that the difference in etiquette is generally just a matter of jurisdiction. The "rules" vary on different trail systems around the country, must the majority seem to recommend that walkers and joggers stay on the left, just as they would on a road, and for the same reasons (as stated in the paper). It really doesn't have anything to do with whether it is a multi-use trail. And I'm pretty sure the American River Parkway is considered multi-use, anyway. After all, roller bladers are allowed.
And I think the reason it is still called a "bike trail" is because it has been since it was built over 20 years ago (actually, it was first built over 100 years ago), and when it was built, the term "multi-use" was not applied to paved trails. So back to jurisdictions: as you said, the ARP west of Hazel is in teh Cuonty's jurisdiction, and they give explicit etiquette rules. The trails on both sides of Lake Natoma are under CA State Parks jurisdiction (with the three-way yield etiquette sign and no direction for which side peds are to use). I have talked to state parks folks before (several years ago) about this. They said that they preferred not to dictate the etiquette. Folsom's multi-use trails do not provide any guidance. The Folsom bike map states: "'Bike'" paths are really multi-use paths". My experience -- based on a dozen years of daily multi-use of these trails, and extensive use of trails in a half dozen other states -- has been that it is much safer and more pleasant for everyone if joggers and walkers stay to the left, as described in the article. This is especially true for people wearing headphones (which is not advisable for a host of reasons). I have also spent hours (in the past) searching for definitive answers to these questions and found none.

[Terry]

The portable signs are up at Glenn and Sibley and Lembi and Sibley notifying drivers that beginning Monday April 19 from 4:00 to 7:00 pm, Sibley Street will be closed at Lembi.

This means that if you're traveling north on Sibley (towards old town), you'll have to turn right or left on Glenn, or you'll be limited to a right turn up Lembi from Sibley.

It will be interesting to see how this works.

[Orangetj]

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the left turn from Lembi on to Riley may be stopped as well, so that may not be a viable route to get downtown. It's next to impossible to make that turn anyway, so this may be more of a safety issue than anything to do with traffic calming. Regardless, for the sake of those living along Lembi, please use Glenn to get to Riley instead if at all possible.

[mtnhiker]

I have read/kept up with readings on both Sibley1 and Sibley2.
The residents of these areas are what matters here- period.
Congratulations to residents of Sibley/Lembi for getting this road
closed temporarily.From todays results I see many speeders on Lembi.
This should ease down when they see they cannot turn left on Riley
and the next day or two they will go up Glenn to riley or use Folsom
blvd.

[Terry]

The City closed Sibley at Lembi promptly at 4:00 pm today! Congratulations to residents in the area. I'm still amazed at how many people fail to read the signs at both ends that say the road is closed Monday through Friday from 4 to 7 PM. It's amusing to watch them zoom down there, and then have to u-turn to come back. I suppose it's the ultimate in behavior modification. Spouse and I walked down there about 5:00 pm to see how it was going - a lot of irate drivers who appeared unbelieving that this could happen to them.

And yes, Riley northbound prohibits left turns onto Lembi, and Lembi eastbound prohibits left turns onto Riley. Further, drivers cannot turn left from Riley down Bidwell, or left on Riley from Bidwell.

And before commuters want to complain again about this, just remember, it causes inconveniences to residents also, but it's worth a try so that we can reclaim our neighborhood streets.

[Lembi Resident]

Thank you Terry and mtnhiker for your kind message of support.

After working with the city and neighbors for many months, I was hopeful that this trial closure would provide some relief to the neighborhood. That is, until the 4 pm traffic hit. Lembi traffic was much, much worse! I had forgotten how steep the learning curve can be. With some luck it will be better in a few days.

Drivers, PLEASE slow down on Lembi! Better yet, PLEASE, PLEASE use Glenn!!

But I am still confident that this trial closure is a good idea. Many neighbors and I sincerely thank the City Council and the Public Works Department for this opportunity to address our traffic problems.

[Lembi Resident]

QUOTE (Terry @ Apr 19 2004, 05:32 PM)

And yes, Riley northbound prohibits left turns onto Lembi, and Lembi eastbound prohibits left turns onto Riley.  Further, drivers cannot turn left from Riley down Bidwell, or left on Riley from Bidwell.

One correction: You may turn left onto Lembi from northbound Riley.

[bordercolliefan]

Was anyone traveling on Riley or Folsom Blvd. during the closure period (4-7 p.m.)?

Was the traffic on those roads any worse than usual or did it seem pretty much the same as always?

Terry, what kind of barrier did the city place on the road? (I drove down Sibley at 8 a.m. this morning taking my girls to school and there was no sign of any barrier being constructed). Also, were you able to observe whether the City promptly removed the barrier at 7 p.m.?

[Sibley Resident]

Today at 4:00 p.m. the gate closed. For the first time in a very long time this neighborhood felt just like that, a neighborhood. For the first time I was actually happy in my home during the hours between 4:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. instead of angry and resentful. I knew what it was that we were hoping for, I knew what it was that we were trying to achieve for the neighborhood, but living on what has been basically treated like a freeway for the last few years and the increasing bumper to bumper traffic, I forgot what it actually was like prior to that. These three hours gave me a window to remember. Although we still have a considerable amount of traffic throughout the day, we didn’t have the bumper to bumper traffic, I didn’t have the vehicle that was stuck in front of my home rattling my windows with the bass from the so called music they are playing, I didn’t have to hear the awful music as they inched by my home, I didn’t have to hear the breaking of vehicles or the acceleration of the vehicles as they screeched around the corners looking for a quicker route, I didn’t have to hear the horn honking and the screeching of tires from car after car trying to make that left hand turn from Sibley onto Natoma without getting hit, I watched as my neighbors could pull right into their driveways and out without having to wait in line or wait for someone kind enough to let them out of their driveway or having someone honking at them because the resident is inconveniencing them as they cut through. Although I couldn’t be outside today with my daughter to enjoy it, due to the weather, I didn’t have to close all of my blinds (I left them open, Wow) in my home barricading us inside just to try and get away from the traffic and I know over the next few weeks when my husband gets home from work and he and our daughter can play with our neighbors and their children (riding bikes, playing ball etc…. ) while I’m cooking dinner, Is what all of this has been about., our neighborhood, our families and our safety. I’m amazed, in awe, I can’t believe that my cheeks actually hurt from smiling so much today. This has been beautiful and wonderful for so many of my neighbors I have spoken with and for my family. I hope and pray that this all works they way we intended it to and that the traffic on Lembi clears up. That traffic is suppose to move to the main arterial system and out of our neighborhoods (Glenn to and from Riley and Folsom Blvd), I believe we all expected Lembi to take a considerable hit at the beginning here and would clear up over the next few weeks. I can only hope that it does. This was intended to help all of us in the neighborhoods and not just my side and if it doesn’t work to clear up the traffic on both sides then we will need to go back to the drawing board to try and adjust this or work towards a different plan, but it is wonderful on this side. The anxiety level I’m feeling at this moment is more than I think I have felt at any point through this whole process. Now that I have actually experienced what we were trying to achieve, I’m already so afraid it will be taken away. Thank you to everyone who has supported us and who have been willing to try this. Thank you so much.

BorderCollie, two of my neighbors who came home during those hours, said they did not see a difference on Folsom Blvd, I don’t know about Riley. One of the neighbors did use Folsom Blvd to Glenn to Sibley and now she used Folsom Blvd to Bidwell to Sibley, she said she didn’t see a difference in her time and she was standing in her driveway in shock that she was able to pull right in, she usually never can, she is always stuck in front of my house inching forward with the rest of the cars as she waits to get to her driveway, she was as happy as I am. My other neighbor actually works at Intel and lives on this side of the closure. He use to be able to take Sibley home but know has to go around on Folsom Blvd to get home. I asked him how it was and he said it took him about three to four minutes longer to get home. I asked him if it was worth it losing his direct shot and he looked at me like I was crazy for asking. He said he was thrilled and is more than willing to drive the few extra minutes, so when he gets home, he is home in his neighborhood.

The city more than promptly closed it at 4:00 p.m. and re-opened it at 7:00 p.m. I could identify exactly when it was closed and re-opened just by looking at the traffic out my windows.

[Terry]

QUOTE (bordercolliefan @ Apr 19 2004, 09:18 PM)

Terry, what kind of barrier did the city place on the road?  (I drove down Sibley at 8 a.m. this morning taking my girls to school and there was no sign of any barrier being constructed).

It's a swing-arm metal pole barrier with one end on wheels. At 4:00 pm they roll it a quarter circle to reach across the street, and padlock it to a steel pole they've planted into the side of the road. It's actually pretty efficient, low cost, and effective. The city was very prompt on both the 4:00 pm closure and the 7:00 pm reopening. I am impressed.

And yes, I agree it will still take a few days for commuters to realize it's REAL! The fact that there were so many drivers who ignored the sign that's posted on Sibley at Bidwell saying the street is closed from 4-7PM really gives you an idea of how oblivious drivers can be to what's going on around them. First I thought they just didn't SEE the sign, but then I got the feeling that they saw it, but just didn't believe it. Oh, well.

When we walked all the way down to Lembi we noticed MORE drivers were coming down Lembi in an attempt to turn right onto Sibley and ended up having to u-turn or turn left onto Sibley. And yes, I would guess they were pretty perturbed about being blocked. Hope things calm down in the next day or two for Lembi residents.

Earlier yesterday I thought I saw pylons placed on Riley at Lembi which would have prohibited left turns down Lembi. It may have been construction going on there though now that I think about it. Maybe that should be the city's next move if Lembi traffic doesn't calm down.

For those who don't live in this area, they just can't even begin to imagine how wonderful those 3 peaceful hours were for us, and I'm hoping it will improve for Lembi, too!

[Sibley Resident]

One of my neighbors on Sibley close to the closure, dealt with a lot of the angry drivers yesterday. She had one that went passed the sign that said the street was closed to through traffic and went down to the gate. In disbelief she watched him as he sat their and pressed the horn for a considerable amount of time like the gate was going to open for him because he was pressing his horn. She watched a vehicle (toyata pick up truck) drive up and around it on the sidewalk left open for pedestrians and she had another person who lives on the other side of the closure who works on Sutter St and lives on Oxborough screaming at her because of the closure. He apparently uses the other neighborhood across from us to access Sibley from Sutter than uses Sibley to Lembi to Oxborough, he apparently can’t figure out that he can easily use Sutter to Riley (parallel arterial road to Sibley residential road) to Lembi to Oxborough, that does not put him any further out of his way. He would be going against the commute traffic on Riley to do this and if he was actually driving the speed limit on Sibley he would probably get home faster using Riley. However, he is furious and vowed to call the city and scream about it. I feel there are some people that are going to be inconvenienced, that may or may not have a valid complaint, that will need to be addressed. Then it will need to be determined if thier complaints out ways the benefits this provides to the residents here and the neighborhood, but this one, sorry, is ridiculous.

[Orangetj]

I wasn't home yesterday while the road was closed, but my wife was for a few minutes. She, too, was amazed by the number of drivers who apparently ignored or did not see the huge flashing sign on Sibley who subsequently had to turn around when they got to the closure. What were those people thinking - that the closure doesn't apply to them? I guess is the same general obliviousness that causes them to speed down Sibley and Lembi with no regard for the fact that these are residential areas.

I anticipated that Lembi would take a hit initially, and being a resident on that street I am concerned about it, but I do think it will taper off as people realize that going up Lembi doesn't do anything to get them closer to where they're going. Frankly, I don't understand why people would rather use Lembi than Glenn, but they do nonetheless.

I am very hopefull that this turns out to be a good solution for the neighborhood and I congratulate those who invested so much of their time into making this a reality.

OrangeTJ

[Shadow]

I am a resident of the Royal Oaks sub division and my backyard is on Sibley St. I do want to see traffic volumes decreased and speeding brought under control. However, I think that closing Sibley St. is the wrong way to accomplish this. There are many of us who use Creative Discoveries and our trip to pick up our children as just increase from one tenth of a mile to over 3 miles each way (at total of 6 miles). This increase only adds to the overall traffic issues that Folsom has.

Also, the residents of Royal Oaks no longer have a safe path out of our sub division. The only traffic controled exit is not shut on one side. Left turns onto Riley are no longer allowed. And left turns from Coblle Ridge onto Glenn are extremely dangerous due to the blind curve in the road and the excessive speeds of the vehicals coming down the hill.

In the end many businesses will suffer because local residents no longer have convenient access to them. When businesses suffer all the residents of Folsom suffer.

Folsom is no longer a small town and closing public streets so that only the residents that actually live on those can use them is not the way to reslove the traffic issues. It is also unrealistic of the residents of Sibley to expect that on they should be allowed access to their street.

There are other options that should be considered, such as speed bumbs on residential streets to help control speeds and still allow all local residents access to public street in their neighborhood. Other ideas should be considered to deter the "pass through" traffic yet will not impact the pathways that are needed to the local residents.

[Lembi Resident]

Shadow: I see that you are new to the Forum. Welcome.

Perhaps you are not aware that there is another lengthy discussion of the Sibley St. closure issue. It can be found in the Folsom General Discussion Forum. The last post date was 3/19. In that thread you will find answers to the questions and concerns that you pose.

I would like to emphasize that the decision to close Sibley for 3 hours a day, and to restrict turns at certain intersections was not made hastily or without consideration of the interests of residents, businesses and commuters. Since October of last year, numerous meetings have been held with residents, traffic engineers and other City management, the Traffic Safety Committee (including Police and Fire Depts.) and City Council Members. The process has been thorough, and many traffic calming alternatives have been considered.

What we will be living with for the next 28 days is a trial. The last two days have understandably been a little chaotic. I am hopeful the flow of traffic will improve as drivers make minor adjustments to their routes. I have confidence that fellow Folsom residents will be patient participants in this traffic calming trial. Many have already graciously expressed their support.

I read that you are concerned about safe and viable traffic routes from your home. May I suggest a few?

1. 21 hours of the day M-F, and 24 hours of the day Sat. & Sun. you can turn from Lembi onto Sibley in either direction.

2. You mention safe access to Glenn. Agreeably, exiting from Cobbleridge is dangerous. Since you are so close to Sibley, why not just make a left onto Sibley? When you reach Glenn, an arterial street, you can go either west or east!

3. Again referring to your mention of safety, I am sure you will agree that turning left onto Riley from Lembi is quite unsafe. I, for one, am willing to make minor changes to my traffic routes for the sake of safety. Ease of making a left turn from Riley onto Lembi is an additional benefit of the restricted turn at that intersection.

I'm sure you will agree that our neighborhood has been in need of serious traffic calming measures. The City of Folsom has been responsive to our needs, and we, in turn, should respond with gratitude and cooperation during the next 28 days.

[Sibley Resident]

Shadow: I would also like to say Welcome to the forum.

I would have to agree with Lembi and ask you, if you have not had the opportunity to read through both threads regarding the Sibley closure, please take the time to do so. I believe it will go a long way to explaining the problems this neighborhood has and how it does not effect only one residential street that should not be treated in the manner it is, but has adversely effected our entire neighborhood, 1/3 of this cities Historic District and very important to the cities history, Lembi and much more. It explains a considerable amount of what was looked at and explanations on why some are not acceptable for one reason or another, such as the Speed Humps (Speed Bumps) which were already recommended and turned down by some city departments for what are valid reasons to them.

As far as closing the neighborhood so only residents can use it. That would require a brick wall (like many of the better planned new developments) with specific entry and exit points to accomplish that. What is being tried does not even come close to accomplishing only residents. What it does do is reduce, not eliminate a significant portion of the the traffic at the worst point of the day for us, for 3 hours. 15 hours a week and there is still 6 access points into the neighborhood even during those 15 hours and believe me, it still does not make it residents only during those 15 hours.

As I have stated previously that there will be people with valid complaints about this. However, this is a trial to determine if this actually works the way it is believed it will, to put the afternoon commute traffic onto the arterial system instead of the cities neighborhoods and determine what complaints there are and if those complaints can be addressed if this would be made permanent. For every action you take there are always unforeseen reactions, some can be worse and some can be delightful, unexpected benefits. The point is we don’t know until it has actually been tried.

I have to hope that if you will read both threads regarding this issue and why and how this trial came about, that whether you disagree or not with the solution being tried, that you will give it the fair 30 day trial it deserves.

Thank You,