56 replies to this topic

[Erleuchtung]

i have not seen any of this stop sign running since moving to the area??

[tony]

Ah, yes, Terry confirmed by his silence that he has been yanking our chains all along.  There are no camera signals in Folsom. 

Boden's right. About two years ago the city was considering photo-enforcement, but got cold feet because of Sacramento's legal problems with their installations. Those have been ironed out and both the City and County of Sacramento have been installing them, among many others in California and nationwide. It's not about the money. It's about very real improvements in safety at intersections with photo-enforcement. http://www.ncsl.org/...n/0700trnrv.htm It's really quite simple, but very sad: the fear of getting a ticket is greater than the fear of crashing and getting injured or killed, even though the latter two are very real possibilities, with over 42,000 people being killed in auto crashes every year in the US, and 3 million being injured. And red light running is responsible for a high percentage of those.

I would contend that if stop sign or red light running is worse in Folsom than elsewhere (I believe that it is generally worse in California and the west in general than it is in the rest of the country) it is simply due to a general lack of enforcement. Unless you are truly driving recklessly, you have virtually no chance of getting a ticket in most of Califonia, and certainly little chance in Folsom. There simply is not a significant enforcement presence. Consequently, there is no deterrent effect and people drive the speed that is comfortable, regardless of the posted speed limit. This is exacerbated in newer cities like Folsom where the arterial roads are essentially freeways without the access control, and even the residential streets are excessively wide. Further fueling the failure to head traffic control devices is the proliferation of "free" right turn lanes, which reinforce the perception that not only stop signs, but red lights as well are optional. All of these lead to a general disrepect for the law, which is not a good thing for any of us.

It's time the city of Folsom joined the hundreds of other cities nationwide making intersections safer by using proven photo-enforcement technology.

[BodenMaddox]

I'm not in favor of cameras. I'm all for officers and enforcement, but cameras have many, many civil liberty and constitutional issues. For instance, if your vehicle is captured on film, you, as the registered owner, are ticketed for the violation, even if you were not the driver. This is a serious legal and constitutional issue, as there is no law that states the vehicle OWNER is the one to be ticketed when there's a moving violation. It's the driver who is at fault, yet by sending the ticket to the owner, there is a presumption of guilt, which goes against our presumption of innocence in this country.

Add on top of that the issues with the technology (sensitivity, detection) that have led to many false reports of red light running, and you have a hornet's nest. As I said, I would love more enforcement of red light running. But we need people doing that, not cameras that have made errors (it's much harder for a cop to make an error on a red light runner...) and force a presumption of guilt into our legal system.

Enforcement: Yes. Cameras: No.

And, BTW, I have never run a red light in my life and never intend to.

[tessieca]

As with any crime, they have to identify you from the camera photo "beyond a reasonable doubt." I understand you can fight those camera tickets if your picture is blurred.

Mennabear knows a thing or two about this, and maybe she can let us know if she is successful when she takes it to court.

[bishmasterb]

Do we want to live in a society where the government installs cameras to monitor it's citizen's behavior?

[tony]

Do we want to live in a society where the government installs cameras to monitor it's citizen's behavior?

Do we want to live in a society where disrespect forr the law is so rampant that, according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, red light runners kill over 900 people per year in the US, more than half of whom are outside of the offending vehicle? Fatal red light runnning crashes have increased at 3 times the rate of other fatal crashes in the 8 years ending in 2000. However, where cameras have been installed, crash rates have declined by 20-87%.

Besides, we already do (live in a society where we are monitored by our government, not to mention by many, many private businesses). But there should be coomfort in the fact that teh government monitoring our actions happens to be us, so if it mis-uses the information, we have the power to stop it. And remember, driving on public streets is a privelege, not a right. Also, the cameras only take your picture if you enter the intersection after the light turns red, so if you are a safe, law-abiding driver, your picture will never be taken, and you have nothing to worry about.

[tessieca]

There's always a privacy/safety trade-off. I don't mind.

[BodenMaddox]

There's always a privacy/safety trade-off.  I don't mind.

Out of curiosity, is there a point where that trade-off reaches a level that you would mind?

[old soldier]

Out of curiosity, is there a point where that trade-off reaches a level that you would mind?

Bring on the old camers, I don't run red lights and don't even go into intersections fast if I'm the first car A red light runner is just a jerk, it becomes an accidnet when the person with the green light jumps into the intersection.

All this stuff about the government watching is a bunch of bunk. Anybody who wanted to listen to mly phone calls would get bored real fast.

If you aren't breaking the law the government just doesn't care.

Ablout the only place it gets a little ticklish is with the attituce of policemen. Most are professional and treat reespectful citizens with respect., but once in a while you get one who watches too much tv and wants to talk to folks like they to on shows like NYPD. That becomes the problem of the police chief and his managers who have to tune this type of officer or get rid of them I guess the more power you give folks the more you have to watch them

The bid deal with the firemen being bad is the same type of problem. We the old people set standards for things we hold in high regard and the big job for the fire administrators is to either get rid of or tune up the trouble makers

I'll bet the red light runners are bad neighbors as well and probably have dogs and kids out of control and park their RV's on the street. Come to think of iit I see more drivers with an attitude driving BMS's than any other car, but maybee thats just Folsom.

When you get old like the old soldier there isn't that many places you are in a big hurry to go to..

[tessieca]

Out of curiosity, is there a point where that trade-off reaches a level that you would mind?

I wouldn't want them in my house.

[bishmasterb]

...so if you are a safe, law-abiding driver, your picture will never be taken, and you have nothing to worry about.

That argument is extremely flawed. Excessive laws do far more harm against law abiding citizens than they do against violent criminals.

[Ahnold]

That argument is extremely flawed. Excessive laws do far more harm against law abiding citizens than they do against violent criminals.

I don't follow you there, Bish. An honor student can kill you running a red light just as easily as a violent criminal, and is far more likely to adjust their behavior if slapped with a hefty fine if caught running the light. It's sad really, but the only thing that seems to cause folks to alter their behavior is a hit to the pocketbook.

Give us an example of how excessive laws can harm a law-abiding citizen.