147 replies to this topic

[redman]

Look, you can't compare Folsom to SF or Napa. Those locations have a large number of middle to upper class locals plus a lot of spendy tourists coming through daily. A large number of high end restaurants can survive there. Also they are areas known for their restaurants so the top chefs want to work there. Not here. You're not going to see more than a few of these kind of restaurants. The population density, median income, and tourism levels are just far too low. It's a bedroom community, and we all knew that when we made our choice to live here. We can all still get to SF or Napa on a weekend trip to get that top notch culinary experience. While we are at home, most of us are going to save our bucks and only eat out occasionally, and we'll generally opt for middle-of-the-road prices. I like having Bidwell St Bistro around for the occasional treat, but I don't expect a mini North Beach over here. Just not gonna happen.

[EAH]

Good Grief! Folsom, while I may weep for you, I now have no question as to why you have the restaurants you have, and why quality restaurateurs will continue to avoid this area.

Many of you know food and restaurants. Your posts make this very clear. But for restaurants, it comes down to a numbers game: are there enough people in this area to support a great restaurant? Posts like this one make the answer abundantly clear: NO!

Redman, if I read this right, you are saying that the solitary act of adding lasagna will make a restaurant “Italian,” and that without the dish, a restaurant forfeits its chance to be so designated. This is one of the most fantastic (I would use another, far less neutral term in private) statements I have ever read. Ristorante Quartino in Chicago does not have lasagna. So, by Redman’s thinking, it cannot be Italian. Nor can any of Mario Batali’s restaurants in New York be Italian, as they lack lasagna as well. I guess A16 in San Francisco, home of the James Beard Award Winner for Best New Chef, Nate Appleman, is not Italian, as there is no lasagna to be found. It will come as a major shock to Dona Scala to learn her Napa Valley restaurant, Bistro Don Giovanni, is no longer Italian until she adds the layered pasta.

It is this sort of provincial, if not downright rural, thinking that ran Bradley Ogden and Angelo Aurimi out of this area, and why Folsom’s lone home-grown talent, Mark Lieberman, left in a huff. Folsomites who know and care about food, I am sorry. But it is the silliness and close-minded, preconceived, cow town mentality of Redman and others that has you all arguing about whether such downright holes as Visconti’s and Granito’s provide the best Italian meals. In truth, neither of them provide anything worth remarking upon. They are about as Italian as a can of Chef Boy-Ar-Dee Spaghetti-O's, which is apparently how Redman was introduced to "Italian" food, and doubtless his/her method for creating another generation of clueless Redmen/women, all wondering "where's the freaking lasagna?"

Ouch! As a Bay Area transplant and a foodie to boot...I must say that I find this post...
RIGHT ON THE MARK!
The fact of the matter is that Folsom COULD support several upscale dining restaurants. The rent here is MUCH lower than in the Bay Area. Have you priced a meal at the Olive Garden lately? Dinner could easily set two adults back $50-$100 bucks for lousy food at best. Why do diverse, adventurous and high quality fine dining restaurants manage to survive in downtown Sacramento (not 15 miles away), but all Folsom can support are the big (and small) chains????

[Folsom4evr]

Ouch! As a Bay Area transplant and a foodie to boot...I must say that I find this post...
RIGHT ON THE MARK!

EAH - It doesn't sound like you read any of the responses. Lemon's posts do not really make sense for a community like Folsom and He/She does not seem to realize that at all, Even after having the difference between SF and Folsom pretty much spelled out like you would for a child. Folsom could simply not support a bunch of high end expensive places. I really do not see why that is so tough to understand?

[EAH]

EAH - It doesn't sound like you read any of the responses. Lemon's posts do not really make sense for a community like Folsom and He/She does not seem to realize that at all, Even after having the difference between SF and Folsom pretty much spelled out like you would for a child. Folsom could simply not support a bunch of high end expensive places. I really do not see why that is so tough to understand?

Please re-read my post. I am talking about the difference between SACRAMENTO and FOLSOM....easy enough for you to comprehend????

[Folsom4evr]

Please re-read my post. I am talking about the difference between SACRAMENTO and FOLSOM....easy enough for you to comprehend????

LOL looks like someone made an edit after the fact to explain themselves.
Nice try, I'll give you that, but seriously no need to be snotty because you got caught.
Your original post only had the one paragraph that made absolutely no mention of Sac and Folsom.
Also when comparing prices people do not usually take into account the bar tab, so dinner at Olive Garden would not be $100 for 2 people based on two plates of food. One last thing because it seems to be still misunderstood is that Sacramento, SF, Napa and the rest are either larger cities or destination places Folsom is a suburb.
I really hope that helps you to understand the economics of a suburb and how chain and smaller non chain places can make it but the places you folks are speaking of cannot. Nothing against them but until Folsom has a much bigger population or becomes a tourist trap it ain't gonna work.

[EAH]

EAH - It doesn't sound like you read any of the responses. Lemon's posts do not really make sense for a community like Folsom and He/She does not seem to realize that at all, Even after having the difference between SF and Folsom pretty much spelled out like you would for a child. Folsom could simply not support a bunch of high end expensive places. I really do not see why that is so tough to understand?

People in glass houses.
I actually edited the post right after I posted it BY ACCIDENT (tired fingers tonight). You must've read it and replied as I was editing.
I would be interested in your views on the actual content of my post.

[Folsom4evr]

People in glass houses.
I actually edited the post right after I posted it BY ACCIDENT (tired fingers tonight). You must've read it and replied as I was editing.
I would be interested in your views on the actual content of my post.

I just edited mine too. No harsh feelings I hope it helps to explain.

[EAH]

Nope. No harsh feelings. I meant to add a wink icon to my comment about glass houses but frankly I'm just too damn tired tonite to type or think :-)

Just interested in opening discussion up about how we can attract and support the adventurous, upscale, maybe even organic restaurants (which need not be overpriced) to Folsom rather than just the homogenized chains. We are so fortunate to have lots of wonderful local farms right here in our backyard (Placerville, Penryn..et all) that provide locally grown wonderful high quality all natural organic meats, poultry and produce, that there is no reason why we can't produce our own version of Chez Panisse or the like. On a smaller more moderate scale perhaps....but I would LOVE to have something like that here in Folsom! The question is ....would Folsom support it????

[cw68]

Food sure is a touchy subject, isn't it?

As for the Italian thang, there's a big difference between Italian food and Sicilian food. And there's a huge difference within the different regions of Italy too.

Taking a cut of meat, laying some sage on top, wrapping it in prosciutto sauteing it and serving it with its juices is very traditional Italian. The north is much more into butter and rice and corn than tomatoes and olive oil. Southern Italian and Sicilian foods are what we think of as Italian. Granitos menu is probably really Italian (I haven't been there).

But, I'll admit it, I'm a total food snob. Not snobby as some of the posts here, but pretty demanding when it comes to food quality. I'm with Davburr in that the best Italian food in the States is in Chicago. North Beach has some good places and so does New York, but when it comes to consistently high quality, authentic, yummy Italian, Chicago is where it's at.

[cw68]

Nope. No harsh feelings. I meant to add a wink icon to my comment about glass houses but frankly I'm just too damn tired tonite to type or think :-)

Just interested in opening discussion up about how we can attract and support the adventurous, upscale, maybe even organic restaurants (which need not be overpriced) to Folsom rather than just the homogenized chains. We are so fortunate to have lots of wonderful local farms right here in our backyard (Placerville, Penryn..et all) that provide locally grown wonderful high quality all natural organic meats, poultry and produce, that there is no reason why we can't produce our own version of Chez Panisse or the like. On a smaller more moderate scale perhaps....but I would LOVE to have something like that here in Folsom! The question is ....would Folsom support it????

I'd love it if Folsom would, but I think it's but a pipe dream. We're a middle-of-the-road, family oriented 'burb. Minivans, soccer, church and chain restaurants. Conformity, ease and consistency are the players. It's not much of a place for risk takers, especially for food.

[Robert Giacometti]

But, I'll admit it, I'm a total food snob. Not snobby as some of the posts here, but pretty demanding when it comes to food quality. I'm with Davburr in that the best Italian food in the States is in Chicago. North Beach has some good places and so does New York, but when it comes to consistently high quality, authentic, yummy Italian, Chicago is where it's at.

How can one be a food snob and root for the Chicago Bears?

[cw68]

How can one be a food snob and root for the Chicago Bears?

I make the best football snacks. Went all out when the Bears went to the Super Bowl, had a $hitload of food sent from Chicago and drove to the Mission for legit hot dog buns. Only the best.

[redman]

Ouch! As a Bay Area transplant and a foodie to boot...I must say that I find this post...
RIGHT ON THE MARK!
The fact of the matter is that Folsom COULD support several upscale dining restaurants. The rent here is MUCH lower than in the Bay Area. Have you priced a meal at the Olive Garden lately? Dinner could easily set two adults back $50-$100 bucks for lousy food at best. Why do diverse, adventurous and high quality fine dining restaurants manage to survive in downtown Sacramento (not 15 miles away), but all Folsom can support are the big (and small) chains????

It's not just about rent. Population density, demographics, and employees all figure in as well. Downtown Sacramento is much more dense than Folsom. More potential customers close to the restaurant. As for demographics, I'd venture to guess there are many more singles and couples without kids in downtown Sac than here. Those folks are much more likely to go out to dinner more often, and spend a decent amount of money on it, than families here in Folsom. Once you have kids in the house, you're not going to go out as often, and when you do, it's not going to be a restaurant where noisy kids are a disruption to others. It needs to be easy and it needs to have a varied enough menu to satisfy picky kids. And it needs to be reasonably priced, because feeding a family of 5 at a fancy restaurant gets pricy quick.

Restaurant owners don't just need to pay rent. They have to pay staff, and they need high quality staff to run an upper-scale restaurant. Staff like that are more likely to be found downtown. They go where the tips and the prestige are.

Most restaurants operate on paper-thin margins. These issues are a big deal. They make or break a restaurant.

More than anything else, I think the high percentage of families with kids in this town really decide the issue. Having children changes everything when it comes to planning dinner.

Some of you just aren't thinking this through. You make it sound so easy but it's not. We do have some very nice restaurants within reach, but they are few and somewhat far between compared to what us Bay Area transplants (I am one of them) are used to. That's how I think it will always be.

[mylo]

Good food doesn't have to be expensive.