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#46 Deb aka Resume Lady

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 08:50 AM

I had a beautiful ride this morning. Everyone -- walkers, joggers, and bicyclists -- were courteous and friendly. Everyone returned my "Good morning!" All of the dogs I saw were on leash and their owners pulled them in when they saw others approaching. Only two people I saw wore ear buds to listen to music but they walked to the side and were not in anyone's way.

If that wasn't nice enough, I saw children playing at Castle Park (which I still call "Leathers Park" after the park designer) geese, mommy duckies and their babies, two rabbits (one of which stood still when I stopped about 8 feet from it and exchanged glances for a few minutes), many red winged black birds, wild flowers, cattails, and a babbling brook. I egret to say I didn't see any egrets today. wink.gif

It's not always crazy out there and I truly appreciate the fact that we have these rich natural resources in our community.
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#47 Steve Heard

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 09:45 AM

QUOTE (BIG PAKO @ May 18 2010, 09:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for the tip... I was wondering about that. I started trail running back in November, but now that the Summer is close I started wondering about those snakes, I know they're all over & how dangerous they are, my dog was bitten by one in Negro Bar area 4 years ago. So I guess going out at 5:00 AM ish is the safest way to avoid these critters?

I've been running the trails here for 9 years and have never seen a snake and have never heard of anyone being bitten.

I've run at all hours of the day and into the night.

I hear about them, but never see them.

I don't think you have to worry about one getting you as you jog past, it's the folks or dogs poking around in the brush which may be most vulnerable.

I know I wouldn't want to see one on the trial, but so far, it hasn't been an issue.

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#48 MrsTuffPaws

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 10:01 AM

QUOTE (stevethedad @ May 18 2010, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've been running the trails here for 9 years and have never seen a snake and have never heard of anyone being bitten.

I've run at all hours of the day and into the night.

I hear about them, but never see them.

I don't think you have to worry about one getting you as you jog past, it's the folks or dogs poking around in the brush which may be most vulnerable.

I know I wouldn't want to see one on the trial, but so far, it hasn't been an issue.


Weird. I am rarely on the trails, but I've seen a rattlesnake on them almost every year for the last 10 years. I just walk though, so it's probably easier for me to see than if I were jogging past.

#49 tony

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 10:16 AM

QUOTE (stevethedad @ May 17 2010, 09:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's the point. It seems to some that the rules are the same and seems to others that they are different, and others believe that the rules of ARP apply to the trails along Lake Natoma and Folsom Lake, but not to the Humbug-Willow Creek and other trails around town.

It seems there's a need for some clarification and signage.

The city (Parks and Rec) is in the process of putting together a trail signage project that will include not only trail etiquette (to match the ARP rules) but also trail names and directional signage. The trail etiquette rules on the FFP web site are there because those are the ones the city will be posting. These are slowly being adopted throughout the region based on a recommendation from the SACOG Bicycle Advisory Committee a couple of years back to address the very issue of "rules" east and west of Hazel causing confusion (Roseville just adopted these rules).

Unfortunately, Folsom's project will not directly solve the problem, because the trails along both sides of Lake Natoma (and up to Beale's Point) are managed by CA DPR, which is not inclined to post rules beyond the "Yield triangles" they already have (bikes yield to everyone; peds yield to horses, etc.). However, once people get "trained" on the rest of Folsom's trails, there likely will be a "critical mass" of users all following the same rules, which will spill over to the State Park's paths. When I use the ARP west of Hazel, the benefit of having posted trail etiquette rules is very obvious: nearly all pedestrians use the left side or DG shoulders. East of Hazel, it is completely haphazard. Why should they be consistent? Because, while most walkers and joggers probably don't cross between jurisdictions very often, bicyclists routinely do. Consistency breeds predictability, which breeds safety and a more pleasant experience for all.

A couple of additional notes:

1) The reason none of Folsom's trails have posted etiquette rules or guide signage is because the city chose to focus on getting the system built first. Until very recently, the number of trail users on Folsom's trails was not high enough to have to worry about rules of etiquette. The fact that it is an issue is a testament to the success of these trails.

2) Having ridden trails in dozens of states, and having researched this topic in the past, it is interesting to note that there is no national consensus on the question of walkers and joggers on the right versus left on multi-use paths. However, my experience has been that walkers and joggers on the left is more common, especially in the places with the highest use (Denver comes to mind).

3) I would like to remind everyone that this topic was about bad behavior by mountain bikers on the unpaved trails. And I think the original complaint was well-founded and reasonable. But, as always, the thread quickly deteriorated into an indictment of all bicyclists as inconsiderate scofflaws. And while I will not defend the inconsiderate scofflaws, it amazes me how much effort people put into railing against a problem with few serious consequences, when there are so many more serious problems we could be trying to solve. Let's take stop sign running. While I don't condone it, the fact is that the biggest consequence (other than the bicyclist potentially getting creamed) is the bad PR for other bicyclists; scofflaw bicyclists make bicycling a little more dangerous by causing general disrespect for bicyclists. But, on the other hand, bicyclists kill about 1 pedestrian and zero motorists per year in the US (and it is big news when it happens). By contrast, motorists kill about 800 bicyclists, 7,000 pedestrians and about 30,000 of each other every year in the US alone. And many of those are a direct result of running stop signs and red lights. Where's the outrage? Where are the red light cameras in Folsom that could actually save some lives? (Oops, going off topic...)


#50 tony

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 10:23 AM

QUOTE (stevethedad @ May 18 2010, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've been running the trails here for 9 years and have never seen a snake and have never heard of anyone being bitten.

I've run at all hours of the day and into the night.

I hear about them, but never see them.

I don't think you have to worry about one getting you as you jog past, it's the folks or dogs poking around in the brush which may be most vulnerable.

I know I wouldn't want to see one on the trial, but so far, it hasn't been an issue.

Saw my first snake of the year on Sunday on the ARP near Howe Ave. Big King Snake sprawled across the center of the paved path about noon. It's always a shock when you see a snake, mostly because they usually aren't moving or are moving very slowly, and they don't make any noise...unless you get a little too close. I usually see a couple of rattle snakes and a couple of other snakes (garter, king, gopher or black racers) each year on the paved paths. Always a treat and a shock, all at the same time.

There was a well-publicized case of a jogger on the ARP getting bit by a rattler a couple of years back. It does happen, although clearly not that often.

#51 supermom

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 10:54 AM

QUOTE (BIG PAKO @ May 18 2010, 09:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for the tip... I was wondering about that. I started trail running back in November, but now that the Summer is close I started wondering about those snakes, I know they're all over & how dangerous they are, my dog was bitten by one in Negro Bar area 4 years ago. So I guess going out at 5:00 AM ish is the safest way to avoid these critters?

Yes, well...the section I run is very quiet in the AM. In the winter it can be very dark under the tree shadows--and makes me nervous if I am out jogging by myself. it is rare that I see another soul out there, in the mornings, except occasionally two bikers on silver bikes that have headlamps on and blind the crud outta me.

So, sometimes I opt to just go run on the bridge. Wide open and has lots of lights (though some of the lights on the new bridge have already stopped working). one bad thing about that-is the wind on that section of road. Can be a bit uncomfortable.

Last fall kept running into this old lady on the trail who insists she knows me (I have no idea who she is) and she grabs me and tries to stop me. Her husband just looks on-as I try to extricate myself from her grip without hurting her. (very awkward)--I stopped running on the path for several months.

Also, in the winter, the path can be a bit slippery where the leaves are slick on the pavement. oddly, that doesn't seem to be a problem when running on the side of the road.


When I want to work a short, fast workout--I go for the dirt. Though, again...in the summer I get nervous about that, just because folsom seems to be snake infested. I mean, we are talking about the neighborhood where they seem to like to slither right up to my door and take a rest.

#52 bookwom

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 11:54 AM

QUOTE (tony @ May 18 2010, 11:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The city (Parks and Rec) is in the process of putting together a trail signage project that will include not only trail etiquette (to match the ARP rules) but also trail names and directional signage. The trail etiquette rules on the FFP web site are there because those are the ones the city will be posting. These are slowly being adopted throughout the region based on a recommendation from the SACOG Bicycle Advisory Committee a couple of years back to address the very issue of "rules" east and west of Hazel causing confusion (Roseville just adopted these rules).

Unfortunately, Folsom's project will not directly solve the problem, because the trails along both sides of Lake Natoma (and up to Beale's Point) are managed by CA DPR, which is not inclined to post rules beyond the "Yield triangles" they already have (bikes yield to everyone; peds yield to horses, etc.). However, once people get "trained" on the rest of Folsom's trails, there likely will be a "critical mass" of users all following the same rules, which will spill over to the State Park's paths. When I use the ARP west of Hazel, the benefit of having posted trail etiquette rules is very obvious: nearly all pedestrians use the left side or DG shoulders. East of Hazel, it is completely haphazard. Why should they be consistent? Because, while most walkers and joggers probably don't cross between jurisdictions very often, bicyclists routinely do. Consistency breeds predictability, which breeds safety and a more pleasant experience for all.

A couple of additional notes:

1) The reason none of Folsom's trails have posted etiquette rules or guide signage is because the city chose to focus on getting the system built first. Until very recently, the number of trail users on Folsom's trails was not high enough to have to worry about rules of etiquette. The fact that it is an issue is a testament to the success of these trails.

2) Having ridden trails in dozens of states, and having researched this topic in the past, it is interesting to note that there is no national consensus on the question of walkers and joggers on the right versus left on multi-use paths. However, my experience has been that walkers and joggers on the left is more common, especially in the places with the highest use (Denver comes to mind).

3) I would like to remind everyone that this topic was about bad behavior by mountain bikers on the unpaved trails. And I think the original complaint was well-founded and reasonable. But, as always, the thread quickly deteriorated into an indictment of all bicyclists as inconsiderate scofflaws. And while I will not defend the inconsiderate scofflaws, it amazes me how much effort people put into railing against a problem with few serious consequences, when there are so many more serious problems we could be trying to solve. Let's take stop sign running. While I don't condone it, the fact is that the biggest consequence (other than the bicyclist potentially getting creamed) is the bad PR for other bicyclists; scofflaw bicyclists make bicycling a little more dangerous by causing general disrespect for bicyclists. But, on the other hand, bicyclists kill about 1 pedestrian and zero motorists per year in the US (and it is big news when it happens). By contrast, motorists kill about 800 bicyclists, 7,000 pedestrians and about 30,000 of each other every year in the US alone. And many of those are a direct result of running stop signs and red lights. Where's the outrage? Where are the red light cameras in Folsom that could actually save some lives? (Oops, going off topic...)



Thanks, Tony, for all the great information!

And... its not often you get to see the word "scofflaws" used - well done!
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#53 Oldschooler81

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 12:09 PM

I guess the confusing thing for bikes is that it's right inbetween a pedestrian and a car, so they sorta have to share the road with both. Whenever I'm out walking, I try not to keep my ipod turned up too loud (and just generally pay attention) for cyclists or anything else.

The hard thing is when there's not much of a sidewalk, and a bicyclist has to avoid a pedestrian by swerving into the right lane (where they could get hit by a car). People underestimate how dangerous it is for cyclists. Even bikers really.

P.S. Isn't it funny that a bicycle rider is a "bicyclist" and a motorcyclist is a "biker", lmao. They don't call them "mokes" for short, and you don't "go out moking". wink.gif

#54 supermom

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 12:22 PM

QUOTE (Oldschooler81 @ May 18 2010, 01:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I guess the confusing thing for bikes is that it's right inbetween a pedestrian and a car, so they sorta have to share the road with both. Whenever I'm out walking, I try not to keep my ipod turned up too loud (and just generally pay attention) for cyclists or anything else.


No, that is not hard. Everyone slows down for the pedestrian!
Bikes nor cars--are immune from that rule. If on a roadway--I do not use an ipod. Not safe.


The hard thing is when there's not much of a sidewalk, and a bicyclist has to avoid a pedestrian by swerving into the right lane (where they could get hit by a car). People underestimate how dangerous it is for cyclists. Even bikers really.

P.S. Isn't it funny that a bicycle rider is a "bicyclist" and a motorcyclist is a "biker", lmao. They don't call them "mokes" for short, and you don't "go out moking". wink.gif

no--but one does go out cruising.

ps...did anyone see the big group of bikes that came into folsom this weekend?

Some sweet bikes in that group....

#55 Terry

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 05:03 PM

QUOTE (tony @ May 18 2010, 10:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
While I don't condone it, the fact is that the biggest consequence (other than the bicyclist potentially getting creamed) is the bad PR for other bicyclists; scofflaw bicyclists make bicycling a little more dangerous by causing general disrespect for bicyclists. But, on the other hand, bicyclists kill about 1 pedestrian and zero motorists per year in the US (and it is big news when it happens). By contrast, motorists kill about 800 bicyclists, 7,000 pedestrians and about 30,000 of each other every year in the US alone. And many of those are a direct result of running stop signs and red lights. Where's the outrage? Where are the red light cameras in Folsom that could actually save some lives? (Oops, going off topic...)



Very few broken laws result in deaths, but scofflaws are scofflaws and if I were to name the most observed group of scofflaws it would be bicyclists. I observed bicyclist disregard for rules of the road at least once each day I'm out on the roads as a driver or pedestrian. Thus the outrage for scofflaws of the bicycling kind.

#56 Steve Heard

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 05:10 PM

QUOTE (tony @ May 18 2010, 11:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The city (Parks and Rec) is in the process of putting together a trail signage project that will include not only trail etiquette (to match the ARP rules) but also trail names and directional signage. The trail etiquette rules on the FFP web site are there because those are the ones the city will be posting. These are slowly being adopted throughout the region based on a recommendation from the SACOG Bicycle Advisory Committee a couple of years back to address the very issue of "rules" east and west of Hazel causing confusion (Roseville just adopted these rules).

Unfortunately, Folsom's project will not directly solve the problem, because the trails along both sides of Lake Natoma (and up to Beale's Point) are managed by CA DPR, which is not inclined to post rules beyond the "Yield triangles" they already have (bikes yield to everyone; peds yield to horses, etc.). However, once people get "trained" on the rest of Folsom's trails, there likely will be a "critical mass" of users all following the same rules, which will spill over to the State Park's paths. When I use the ARP west of Hazel, the benefit of having posted trail etiquette rules is very obvious: nearly all pedestrians use the left side or DG shoulders. East of Hazel, it is completely haphazard. Why should they be consistent? Because, while most walkers and joggers probably don't cross between jurisdictions very often, bicyclists routinely do. Consistency breeds predictability, which breeds safety and a more pleasant experience for all.


I am a biker, jogger and walker on the trails. My issue is that there seems to be a big push from bike advocates to list rules, and the rules always seem to favor the biker's right to the road, relegating all others to the rocky, dirty, crap studded, weedy, uneven, narrow and occasionally/potentially snake infested shoulders.

If we had wide, flat, maintained shoulders it would be different, but we don't.

I ran the Run with Nature last weekend. With notices posted allover the trails and with almost 2 thousand runners, there were bikers trying to maneuver through the crowd instead of pulling off or walking until everyone passed.

It's as if they were saying, 'Nope, this is a bike trail made for bikers and I'm not going to give in to runners.'

While we call them 'bike trails', they are actually meant for everyone.

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#57 eVader

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 07:05 PM

QUOTE (stevethedad @ May 18 2010, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am a biker, jogger and walker on the trails. My issue is that there seems to be a big push from bike advocates to list rules, and the rules always seem to favor the biker's right to the road, relegating all others to the rocky, dirty, crap studded, weedy, uneven, narrow and occasionally/potentially snake infested shoulders.

If we had wide, flat, maintained shoulders it would be different, but we don't.

I ran the Run with Nature last weekend. With notices posted allover the trails and with almost 2 thousand runners, there were bikers trying to maneuver through the crowd instead of pulling off or walking until everyone passed.

It's as if they were saying, 'Nope, this is a bike trail made for bikers and I'm not going to give in to runners.'

While we call them 'bike trails', they are actually meant for everyone.

That was rude of anyone to interrupt an event be it a cyclist or walker during the Run with Nature or a walker interrupting the Amgen Tour of CA.

Absolutely correct that trails are for everyone but they also need to follow the rules for APR and Folsom trails - both of which state peds on the shoulder, cyclists maintaining proper speed, obeying traffic controls and calling out when passing.

Life's short, enjoy the ride (or walk/jog/run in nature)...

#58 Steve Heard

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 09:55 PM

QUOTE (eVader @ May 18 2010, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Absolutely correct that trails are for everyone but they also need to follow the rules for APR and Folsom trails - both of which state peds on the shoulder...

The problem is, it has not been established that the same rules apply, and as mentioned before, there is no adequate shoulder.

By the way, if there was, I'd be on it. I so prefer the decomposed granite or even smooth dirt over paved roadway, but prefer paved roadway over rocks, pits, etc.

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#59 ducky

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE (stevethedad @ May 18 2010, 10:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The problem is, it has not been established that the same rules apply, and as mentioned before, there is no adequate shoulder.

By the way, if there was, I'd be on it. I so prefer the decomposed granite or even smooth dirt over paved roadway, but prefer paved roadway over rocks, pits, etc.


+1

#60 supermom

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 05:18 AM

QUOTE (ducky @ May 18 2010, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
+1

And let's not forget that the ar trail from the new bridge down to rainbow bridge has lots of spots where trees are pulling the trail up, there is no shoulder, sometimes there are huge berry and thorn bbushes -with lots of poison oak- hanging on fences just a few inches from the trail.

It would be great to see brake check area on that portion of trail...

And an occasional radar.

And a phone box. How come trails outside of folsom have phone boxes on them-but we don't?




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