190 replies to this topic

[Deb aka Resume Lady]

Tsukiji, you've put some words in my mouth that don't belong there. I'm talking about the kinds of conversations that you have with your children to avoid these kinds of situations. I agree, and taught my teens, that these activities are illegal and dangerous. I never said we're discussing little white lies (where the heck did you get that?) or, doj_gal, that the kinds of behavior and consequences in the accident we're discussing should get swept under the rug. I'm not now nor have I ever been a sweep-it-under-the-rug person. Noperino.

I'm sorry, Tsukiji, that your parents would have disowned you for asking for a sober ride (really -- sure seems harsh). Our kids knew we'd be disappointed in them and they knew there could be consequences for certain actions, but they knew their safety came first. They're young adults now who didn't get in to drugs and they make sure they or someone they're with is a designated driver if they're drinking. I've been called on a few occasions to offer the sober ride; I'm more than glad to do it.

The teens involved in this accident shouldn't get off without consequences and I never implied that they should. I only said I hope they fully recuperate.

[tsukiji]

Tsukiji, you've put some words in my mouth that don't belong there. I'm talking about the kinds of conversations that you have with your children to avoid these kinds of situations. I agree, and taught my teens, that these activities are illegal and dangerous. I never said we're discussing little white lies (where the heck did you get that?) or, doj_gal, that the kinds of behavior and consequences in the accident we're discussing should get swept under the rug. I'm not now nor have I ever been a sweep-it-under-the-rug person. Noperino.

I'm sorry, Tsukiji, that your parents would have disowned you for asking for a sober ride (really -- sure seems harsh). Our kids knew we'd be disappointed in them and they knew there could be consequences for certain actions, but they knew their safety came first. They're young adults now who didn't get in to drugs and they make sure they or someone they're with is a designated driver if they're drinking. I've been called on a few occasions to offer the sober ride; I'm more than glad to do it.

The teens involved in this accident shouldn't get off without consequences and I never implied that they should. I only said I hope they fully recuperate.

Disappointed? That's the extent? What other consequences? How far away from actually condoning the behavior is this?

One gets disappointed if they bring home a B instead of A. One gets disappointed if they don't study well for a test. Perhaps, One gets disappointed if your spouse has an affair. Or maybe one gets a divorce. So, in this case, a breach of trust is more severe than actually put the public at risk?

Is "disappointed" the right level of response for teenage drinking? To the point of impaired driving? To taking drugs? To speeding, let alone driving w/out a license? At what point does one get more than disappointed?

Disappointed comes nowhere near the response I believe appropriate for putting their lives and other peoples lives at risk.

I'm not saying don't give your drunken kid a ride home safely -- but that's more in consideration of the public than the kid. I'm saying that one should be more focused on preventing the bad behavior in the first place and apply rewards and punishments as appropriate. Anything less is implicitly condoning the unwanted behavior, especially if it's repeated.

But I guess these are philosophical differences we'll just independently maintain. Don't feel sorry for me, I'm fine and have great parents. I've never had a need or interest in drugs. My choice.

[supermom]

It's on days like this, when I get angry and wonder-just how is our tax money for "federal aid" to assist in underage selling arrests--being used?

Ok, maybe not fair to or maybe too blaming or maybe, just maybe someone will snipe and say its the parents fault---but I see lots of room for failure when these things happen.

Who supplied the marijuana ( a downer-slows their reactions, right?) and the alcohol (another downer, and also dampens their natural or taught inhibitions).

If the kid driver wasn't licensed, well besides he'll be in jail for a long time, but my understanding is that persons underage who are unlicensed and get arrested for alcohol related incidents involving vehicles have their license privledges revoked until they are either 18 or 21--uhhmmm I say either 'cause I don't remember.

Hopefully this will apply to all four kids, regardless if they were driving --but I doubt it will happen.

The worst part of all this, is that there is so much education out there on the dangers of alcohol.

MADD has done a significant job in educating a generation in the dangers of alcohol.

And the highschools here in Folsom have a program for Jr. and Sr. that is mandatory--about a formal lecture with FPD and they bring a busted up car and all that stuff, right?

They still do that? Is it mandatory? 'Cause the kids most likely to ditch such a mild lecture are prolly the ones who need it the most.

One of my kids starts her freshman year in just a few weeks. I vaguely remember my parents had a verbal contract with me when I got into my JR year in highschool.

I like a few of the ideas I have seen some of the posters suggest. About designated drivers and such.

I will probably put it in writing and make the kid keep it in her wallet, along with emergency phone numbers. One thing I do know, if my kid were to call me, I would be surprised. If my kid were to call a friend, I would not. I believe she would do the right thing. So, my biggest thing is wanting to know as many of her friends as possible....and their families. Hopefully the kids would feel comfortable calling me...even if mine doesn't.



I just hope she never gets into a position like these four kids did....

[Deb aka Resume Lady]

Disappointed? That's the extent? What other consequences? How far away from actually condoning the behavior is this?

One gets disappointed if they bring home a B instead of A. One gets disappointed if they don't study well for a test. Perhaps, One gets disappointed if your spouse has an affair. Or maybe one gets a divorce. So, in this case, a breach of trust is more severe than actually put the public at risk?

Is "disappointed" the right level of response for teenage drinking? To the point of impaired driving? To taking drugs? To speeding, let alone driving w/out a license? At what point does one get more than disappointed?

Disappointed comes nowhere near the response I believe appropriate for putting their lives and other peoples lives at risk.

I'm not saying don't give your drunken kid a ride home safely -- but that's more in consideration of the public than the kid. I'm saying that one should be more focused on preventing the bad behavior in the first place and apply rewards and punishments as appropriate. Anything less is implicitly condoning the unwanted behavior, especially if it's repeated.

But I guess these are philosophical differences we'll just independently maintain. Don't feel sorry for me, I'm fine and have great parents. I've never had a need or interest in drugs. My choice.

You're just looking for an argument. I've already said there would be consequences (you want to use the word punishment -- same dif/just a matter of semantics), so no.... we wouldn't "just" be disappointed. I, also, already said the key was preventing the behavior in the first place -- which is where the discussions come in. I didn't realize you expected me to detail all of our parenting strategies and all of the possible consequences for all possible actions. When I write the book, I'll sell the first copy to you. I honestly feel we agree more than you seem to be acknowledging.

[Steve Heard]

Tsukiji, you've put some words in my mouth that don't belong there. I'm talking about the kinds of conversations that you have with your children to avoid these kinds of situations. I agree, and taught my teens, that these activities are illegal and dangerous. I never said we're discussing little white lies (where the heck did you get that?) or, doj_gal, that the kinds of behavior and consequences in the accident we're discussing should get swept under the rug. I'm not now nor have I ever been a sweep-it-under-the-rug person. Noperino.

I'm sorry, Tsukiji, that your parents would have disowned you for asking for a sober ride (really -- sure seems harsh). Our kids knew we'd be disappointed in them and they knew there could be consequences for certain actions, but they knew their safety came first. They're young adults now who didn't get in to drugs and they make sure they or someone they're with is a designated driver if they're drinking. I've been called on a few occasions to offer the sober ride; I'm more than glad to do it.

The teens involved in this accident shouldn't get off without consequences and I never implied that they should. I only said I hope they fully recuperate.

Agreed, your reply was about prevention. You didn't make excuses or sweep things under the rug.

My message to my kids was basically, 'Don't drink or do drugs. Don't into a car if the driver has been drinking or doing drugs. If you ever find yourself intoxicated, or your ride home is intoxicated, or you just need a rescue, call me and I'll come and get you. No consequences you would face with me could compare to the consequences of driving under the influence. Don't do it.'

That's not condoning or minimizing the seriousness of their actions. It is being realistic and responsible.

I do know someone who wrecked a car while drunk and who thankfully was not hurt. He told his dad that he knew he shouldn't drink and drive but was afraid and didn't want to get in trouble and thought he was okay to make it home.

[tsukiji]

I am sorry Tsukiji, but I totally disagree with you and gotta side with Deb B on this.
Having grown up in a VERY rich area in the Bay Area (Piedmont) that was also a very small community, I had MORE than my fair share of friends who died in car/motorcycle accidents due to drinking and drugs and through overdoses. I lost a total of 7 friends who died in 3 separate accidents all in the span of 1982-84. Not counting the 2 that died from overdoses. Let me tell you, I went to more funerals in those 2 years than in the last 25 years. To assume that kids will never experiment with drugs and alchohol because you tell them not to, and it is illegal is wildly naive. You are forgetting about the peer pressure part of the equation, and you cannot underestimate peer pressure.

I sorry you lost so many friends. Piedmont - very nice.

I've had peer pressure and made my choices. Although it was a long time ago, I too was a teenager once. It's not impossible to go against peer pressure. You can also find different peers. No, I'm not perfect. Far from it. But there are degrees and boundaries. This is one of those boundaries I don't think should be crossed. My belief, don't expect others to necessarily share it. There are honest mistakes and there are decisions -- they are not the same.

I grew up in those times as well (or in close proximity). There was a funeral. But I opted for other choices and found friends and pees making similar choices. I played a lot of soccer, tennis. Had parties, watched movies. Did homework. Kids who drank and did drugs were not friends of mine. Even today -- you can be a friend or you can do drugs, you can't have both, doesn't matter how good of a person you are otherwise. That's my line.

[Deb aka Resume Lady]

I've never had a need or interest in drugs. My choice.

Neither did my children, but I didn't threaten to disown them if they did.

[tsukiji]

You're just looking for an argument. I've already said there would be consequences (you want to use the word punishment -- same dif/just a matter of semantics), so no.... we wouldn't "just" be disappointed. I, also, already said the key was preventing the behavior in the first place -- which is where the discussions come in. I didn't realize you expected me to detail all of our parenting strategies and all of the possible consequences for all possible actions. When I write the book, I'll sell the first copy to you. I honestly feel we agree more than you seem to be acknowledging.

I'm not looking for an argument. Not even interested in debating. I'm voicing my opinion on this rather passionate topic. People draw lines. I have a line about this type of behavior for kids and adults alike.

One question: if one is repeatedly picking up kids, how effective is the prevention?

Neither did my children, but I didn't threaten to disown them if they did.

Look, you can flame and attack me as much as you want. Don't imply s--- about my parents. You don't know them. If that's the way you want to play, I understand better what type of person you are.

[Deb aka Resume Lady]

I'm not looking for an argument. Not even interested in debating. I'm voicing my opinion on this rather passionate topic. People draw lines. I have a line about this type of behavior for kids and adults alike.

One question: if one is repeatedly picking up kids, how effective is the prevention? Probably not very; but that wasn't our situation.

Look, you can flame and attack me as much as you want. Don't imply s--- about my parents. You don't know them. If that's the way you want to play, I understand better what type of person you are. I'm not trying to flame or attack you, but you seem to want to attack our approach to educating and keeping our children safe. There are many ways to parent, educate and discipline our children. What we did was effective in our household, yet you were eager to criticize. Don't imply s--- about what we did; you don't know us.

[supermom]

If only the four kids involved in this accident_ could see how perfect strangers, as parents..

can get so emotional and try so hard to want to believe that it is just the parents love that can save them....

maybe they would see how much they can offer the world by doing the right thing, growing up, and becomeing loving parents-themselves.

So sad, they can't see the protectiveNESS we all feel for these kids.

[tsukiji]

I was responding to your post that was suggestive of condonment. Your post was lean on preventation and more on (mild) reaction.

Don't do this, but if you do, call us and we'll bring you home safely. That your kids turned out well is besides the point. And it's good that you were never tested. But again, like I said, everyone has different lines and boundaries.

[doj_gal]

I was responding to your post that was suggestive of condonment. Your post was lean on preventation and more on (mild) reaction.

Don't do this, but if you do, call us and we'll bring you home safely. That your kids turned out well is besides the point. And it's good that you were never tested. But again, like I said, everyone has different lines and boundaries.

I think the difference between you and Deb B's post are that you will never see the other side. Often times parents whom hold the never do this attitude, have children that act much more poorly and do more dangerous things.

My parents taught us the dangers of drugs and alcohol to your mind and body. I was informed of how this changes your brain chemicals and could cause you to act in ways that you would regret. Of course as a teen I tried it. I however understood the risks were too high to then get in a vehicle. Alcohol is not such a bad thing if it is used in moderation and done so safely. However, I think if you consistantly allow your children to act foolishly they will continue to push the boundaries. It's all about balance!

Honestly, I do not know what approach I will take with my son when he gets to this age...Thankfully I have a few years. But it doesn't mean I am not thinking about it now and talking with my husband. These are serious issues and I want to know that we are on the same page and come up with what we feel is the best solution for our son. I do know that I will not allow him to behave as he pleases because of peer pressure but I also want him to feel comfortable enough to discuss these things with me. Keeping an open dialouge with your children and a balance between friend, mentor, guardian and parent are the most important keys to parenting!!!

Ultimately, I do hate when people say that because I have yet to experience parenting a teen then I cannot have an opinion on it. That's like saying you cannot give you opinion to politicians on how our state should be run or even have an opinion on it (POLITICAL FORUM). I call BS and I am sooooo sick of hearing this closed minded arguement that attempts to invalidate my opinion on parenting. I was a teen once and have seen many different parenting styles.

I do know that his car keys were somewhere where he could access them and he felt he could take the car. Obviously his parents didn't put the fear of an unGodly rath if he ever took the vehicle.

[supermom]

Don't you think it possible that a totality approach or drawing a line in the sand may not necessarily work for every child?

Is it possible that a leniency on what the boundaries are: as long as a call is made before physical harm is possible--may not work when parenting just any child?

Is it possible that both of you are excellent parents, and it works in your household because you have reared your children from scratch, they know your boundaries as well as you know their personalities--because there is a good relationship involved and their is not any other forms of problems (ie: drugs, psychological issues, really bad friends, etc)?

I think you both have some great ideas.

I however, will never tell my child don't you ever do this: because she will just because I said don't do it.


With her, I am on my toes. She challenges me to think outside the parenting box that I had when I was her age.

And its why I just can't ever say: she'd never do it. Or I won't ever say that to my kid.

And why I am open to other parenting ideas-

[Deb aka Resume Lady]

I was responding to your post that was suggestive of condonment. Your post was lean on preventation and more on (mild) reaction.

Don't do this, but if you do, call us and we'll bring you home safely. That your kids turned out well is besides the point. And it's good that you were never tested. But again, like I said, everyone has different lines and boundaries.

If you want to choose to pay attention to only some of what I wrote, continually ignore what I said about consequences, and choose to assume that I condone the behavior, then there is no place for this conversation to go. You've made up your mind what you want to believe I have said instead of paying attention to what I have said. There's no way to have a logical discussion or debate under those conditions.