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Folsom Sues Sac Co Over Mather Expansion


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#46 Howdy

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 09:41 AM

 

 

 

One the other hand - what gives anyone the right to use someone else's property as a runway approach?  

 

I'm not saying planes should or should not continue to use Mather.  All I'm saying is that the discussion is a bit more complex than "there was an aiport there - so deal with it."

I don't think they are using your property. Unless you also own the air space above your home. 

 

I am not so sure it is more complex than that. What do people hope to accomplish? Get Sac County to abandon the airport? Shift the problem from their neighborhood to someone else's? Its a cargo airport that is used a couple hours a day. The freight arrives in the morning for delivery. Then its done. The freight that gets picked up and flown out that evening, takes off to the west and doesn't even come over Folsom. Right now the complaint is about one UPS plane a day, which probably doesn't even come in on Sunday. Am I understanding this correctly that 40 seconds of an airplane going overhead is consuming the rest of someones waking hours that they need to do something to stop this 40 seconds of noise? Life must be pretty good if that is their only worry, 

 

I grew up 6 miles from Moffet NAS. We had P3's every 7 minutes buzzing the house. You could look up and count every sonar tube and scratch their belly as they flew by. They went from sun up to sun down. It didn't matter where you lived in Sunnyvale, Mountain View, or Cupertino. The C5 galaxy's would come screaming in so loud and slow you though they were going to fall out of the sky. I could stand on my second story roof and watch the Blue Angles every year. They would come hauling right over the house on their way back in for another maneuver. 

 

It sounds like a matter of perspective. A few planes don't bother me considering what I grew up with. I think people are being a wee bit touchy and are going all out on the NIMBY campaign. Speaking of trains, my grandfather was an engineer. Live 300 yards from the tracks and a cement plant and 1/2 mile from the San Jose rail yards. Amtrak and freight trains going by night and day. Would shake the house like an earthquake. Not to mention the landing approach for San Jose Intl paralleled the tracks, so you had commercial flights coming in all the time too. If the worst we have in Folsom is a couple planes coming in to land over a small window of time, I don't think we really have it all that bad. 



#47 Robert Gary

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 09:53 AM

I don't think they are using your property. Unless you also own the air space above your home. 

 

You don't. Title 49 US Code 40103 says that the FAA an exclusive control of airspace. They define airspace as any space that aircraft can navigate in

section 40102 says "“navigable airspace” means airspace above the minimum altitudes of flight prescribed by regulations under this subpart and subpart III of this part, including airspace needed to ensure safety in the takeoff and landing of aircraft."

 

 

So not only do you not own the airspace above your house, neither does the state. From the moment the wheels leave the ground until they return you are immune to state laws and only bound by federal laws.

 

-Robert



#48 Dave Burrell

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 10:22 AM

The concern is noise. I moved up here to  get away from that annoying noise I had to hear all the time when I lived in Los Angeles.. It will be a damn shame to have airplanes flying over head all day and night now.  IMO, that will affect our house values. 


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#49 Howdy

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 10:47 AM

. It will be a damn shame to have airplanes flying over head all day and night now.  IMO, that will affect our house values. 

I am not sure where everyone is getting this "flying over head all day and night" stuff from? It would be interesting to find out what everyone thinks is going in there? There are not 50 air cargo carriers sitting on the sideline waiting for Sac County to finish some improvements so they can start flying in here. They are already here. Passenger aircraft isn't going to fly into MHR. SMF does all that. What is the big fear? Am I missing something? Somebody fill me in on what I am not seeing or understanding. I am willing to learn. 



#50 (Cheesesteak)

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 10:50 AM

 

You don't. Title 49 US Code 40103 says that the FAA an exclusive control of airspace. They define airspace as any space that aircraft can navigate in

section 40102 says "“navigable airspace” means airspace above the minimum altitudes of flight prescribed by regulations under this subpart and subpart III of this part, including airspace needed to ensure safety in the takeoff and landing of aircraft."

 

 

So not only do you not own the airspace above your house, neither does the state. From the moment the wheels leave the ground until they return you are immune to state laws and only bound by federal laws.

 

-Robert


Well – actually, you do own the airspace over your property - up to a "reasonable" level.  One of the oldest principles of property law - Cuius est solum, eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos was absolute until the advent of aviation.  Modern property law has recognized the impraicality of allowing property owners to assert ownership to coelum (heaven) – and has developed a rule of reason in determining to what elevation a property owner “owns.”  If you don’t own the space “above” your property – how do you build on it?  Plant a tree?  How can someone in NYC or San Francisco build a highrise building 1500 feet into the “air?”

 

Of course, you’re aware that California law recognizes your ownership of the airspace above your property – right?  California Civil Code defines “Land” as:

 

§ 659.  Land
Land is the material of the earth, whatever may be the ingredients of which it is composed, whether soil, rock, or other substance, and includes free or occupied space for an indefinite distance upwards as well as downwards, subject to limitations upon the use of airspace imposed, and rights in the use of airspace granted, by law.

 

The question is where the line gets drawn.  That’s why some airports obtain overflight (navigation) easements to provide them with certainty over space needed for takeoffs and landing.  In fact – Humboldt County made the issuance of a building permit within the Airport Compatability Zone of Arcata/Eureka Airport contingent upon the granting of a navigation easement for aircraft over the property.  If the landowner has no rights to the airspace – why mandate the navigation easement?  That requirement was actually litigated this year and, oddly enough, held not to constitute a “taking” of property.

The Government says that Property owners have no rights above what is considered “minimum safe altitude” – which will differ with the circumstances.  That prevents, for example, a police helicopter from circling 30 feet above your home.  So - notwithstanding California’s recognition of the ownership of airspace – the law provides for and recognizes the reality of air traffic.  In this regard, California Public Utilities Code provides:

 

§ 21403.  Lawfulness of flight or landing; Rights of flight; Zones of approach

(a) Flight in aircraft over the land and waters of this state is lawful, unless at altitudes below those prescribed by federal authority, or unless conducted so as to be imminently dangerous to persons or property lawfully on the land or water beneath. The landing of an aircraft on the land or waters of another, without his or her consent, is unlawful except in the case of a forced landing or pursuant to Section 21662.1. The owner, lessee, or operator of the aircraft is liable, as provided by law, for damages caused by a forced landing.

(b) The landing, takeoff, or taxiing of an aircraft on a public freeway, highway, road, or street is unlawful except in the following cases:

(1) A forced landing.

(2) A landing during a natural disaster or other public emergency if the landing has received prior approval from the public agency having primary jurisdiction over traffic upon the freeway, highway, road, or street.

(3) When the landing, takeoff, or taxiing has received prior approval from the public agency having primary jurisdiction over traffic upon the freeway, highway, road or street.

The prosecution bears the burden of proving that none of the exceptions apply to the act which is alleged to be unlawful.

© The right of flight in aircraft includes the right of safe access to public airports, which includes the right of flight within the zone of approach of any public airport without restriction or hazard. The zone of approach of an airport shall conform to the specifications of Part 77 of the Federal Aviation Regulations of the Federal Aviation Administration, Department of Transportation.

 

Current “minimum safe altitude” is set by the FAA in 14 CFR 91.119:

 

§ 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.

    Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

© Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface--

(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or © of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and

(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph © of this section.

 

The difference between a landowners right to the airspace (whatever distance that is) and impacts from aircraft "noise" on matters when determining whether an aircraft is trespassing on your property or whether it is simply a nuisance. 

 

Anyhoot – I had hoped to not have to get into this type of detail with what I hoped was a simple post raising questions – but the suggestion that I was simply wrong merited further response.   My apologies for the length . . . I



#51 Robert Gary

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 10:59 AM

Well – actually, you do own the airspace over your property - up to a "reasonable" level. 

 

 

 

 


But we're referring to aircraft approaching Mather. That is clearly navigable airspace. The courts have ruled that you can generally build a building of a few stories. But you can't build a 1000 foot tower.

 

-Robert



#52 Rich_T

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 11:37 AM

<< I grew up 6 miles from Moffet NAS. We had P3's every 7 minutes buzzing the house. You could look up and count every sonar tube and scratch their belly as they flew by. They went from sun up to sun down>>

 

And I have friends who live a two-minute drive from SFO, in San Bruno.  The big jetliners are overhead all day as well.  But they knew what the deal was. 

 

Even so, the issue is not "sunup to sundown"; it's what goes on in the hours before sunup.  This morning was 4:41 AM, by the way.

 

The big concern of which I read (a few years ago) is that the Mather "improvements" would allow the establishment of a Memphis-like cargo hub here, with planes every few minutes during the night as well as the day.

 

And no, we don't own our airspace over a certain height, but the noise makes it all the way to the ground.



#53 (Cheesesteak)

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 11:55 AM

 

 


But we're referring to aircraft approaching Mather. That is clearly navigable airspace. The courts have ruled that you can generally build a building of a few stories. But you can't build a 1000 foot tower.

 

-Robert

Yep.  As currently defined by the FAA - the planes coming into Mather are above minimum safe altitudes.  As they pass Foslom - UPS planes average around 2500' of clearance (around 3000' Alt.)  They get a bit closer to homes as they pass EDH.

 

Dave is right - it's the noise.  Like I said - whether they're above MSA only addresses whether the aircraft commit a "trespass."  Noise is another issue altogether.  The plane that comes in every morning before 5am wakes me up.  Frankly - I don't mind the two flgihts that come in during the early evening.  It's the early flgihts that are a PITA.

 

I certainly would rather the air traffic not increase - that's for sure.  Or - perhaps they should have aircraft approach over the 50 corridor . . .

 

But - they cannot do so - because Mather has implemented a "Continuous Decsent Approach" to try to reduce noise over EDH and Folsom (mainly).  According to County Airports:

 

"At some point in all approaches, the pilot will set the flaps, lower the landing gear, and
apply the appropriate thrust to bring the aircraft safely down to the runway touchdown
point. It is at this point that there is no difference between the standard approach and
CDA, and, therefore, the noise levels on the ground are the same for both approaches.
During the Louisville test this point was about 7 nm from the runway landing threshold.
The 7 nm mile point on the ILS at Mather Airport is approximately to the southsouthwest
of the Highway 50 Prairie City Road interchange. Therefore, the CDA at
Mather may benefit residents in Folsom, El Dorado Hills, and areas to the east of El
Dorado Hills."

 

A CDA requires a stablized approach at a considerable distance from the airport (no turns, no step-elevations).  It is a long, continuous, gradual (straight) approach that requires little manipulation of thrust or flaps.  If you watch UPS come in to Mather from Folsom - you'll note that gear doesn't come down until the planes are near Hwy 50 / Prarie City Road.

 

My question is - what's the differnce between a few "noisy" landings and a whole bunch of moderately noisy landings?  Oddly enough - the noise study for the CDA at Mather found a reduction in noise on the ground of (only) 4dB.

 

Here's your CDA into Mather . . . 

 

http://flightaware.c...PS) RWY 22L/pdf



#54 Howdy

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 11:57 AM

.

 

The big concern of which I read (a few years ago) is that the Mather "improvements" would allow the establishment of a Memphis-like cargo hub here, with planes every few minutes during the night as well as the day.

 

 

The reason Memphis is so busy is thats where FedEx Express is headquartered and has their largest hub. FedEx is the largest air cargo carrier in the world. No company is going to come here and create a hub and spoke system on the west coast. I said it once in this thread and I will repeat it once again. Air cargo was up last year, but it has been trending lower for a while. UPS moves much more by truck and rail than air. FedEx trucks more that it moves through the air. In addition to the FedEx ground facility off Power Inn, there is another one opening up in Roseville. Low cost trucking and rail is the wave of the future. Not air. In fact FedEx is looking far enough out that they are contemplating getting into the cargo ship business. International growth is where its at. Instead of flying freight around the world they can run their own container ships.

 

Air cargo will always have a place for expedited shipping, but the costs are high. Turning MHR into an air cargo gem, sounds like nice political talk, as if they are looking to the future for growth and jobs, but it is a shrinking business model for the major players. They are all looking for low cost alternatives to move the freight and have reasonable transit times. Customer shipping preferences bear that out. 



#55 Robert Gary

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 12:08 PM

The reason Memphis is so busy is thats where FedEx Express is headquartered and has their largest hub. FedEx is the largest air cargo carrier in the world. No company is going to come here and create a hub and spoke system on the west coast. I said it once in this thread and I will repeat it once again. Air cargo was up last year, but it has been trending lower for a while. UPS moves much more by truck and rail than air. FedEx trucks more that it moves through the air. In addition to the FedEx ground facility off Power Inn, there is another one opening up in Roseville. Low cost trucking and rail is the wave of the future. Not air. In fact FedEx is looking far enough out that they are contemplating getting into the cargo ship business. International growth is where its at. Instead of flying freight around the world they can run their own container ships.

 

Air cargo will always have a place for expedited shipping, but the costs are high. Turning MHR into an air cargo gem, sounds like nice political talk, as if they are looking to the future for growth and jobs, but it is a shrinking business model for the major players. They are all looking for low cost alternatives to move the freight and have reasonable transit times. Customer shipping preferences bear that out. 

 

I strongly disagree that air cargo is no the future. When Apple announced the new iPhone they didn't say "Just wait 40 days for the ship to get here". That is how long it takes a container ship to travel from China. Amazon is working on establishing a same day delivery service because 2 days is way too slow. The future has room for train and rail but air cargo is increasingly important in a global world. 

That said, you're right that Mather will never be a major cargo hub. We don' thave the geographical or political positioning to do that. Mather is a huge asset to our community. Its is a large amount of acreage for sorting and other such operations. Such operations are a drain on Sacramento international's space and congestion. 



#56 (Cheesesteak)

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 12:15 PM

 

I strongly disagree that air cargo is no the future. When Apple announced the new iPhone they didn't say "Just wait 40 days for the ship to get here". That is how long it takes a container ship to travel from China. Amazon is working on establishing a same day delivery service because 2 days is way too slow. The future has room for train and rail but air cargo is increasingly important in a global world. 

That said, you're right that Mather will never be a major cargo hub. We don' thave the geographical or political positioning to do that. Mather is a huge asset to our community. Its is a large amount of acreage for sorting and other such operations. Such operations are a drain on Sacramento international's space and congestion. 

 

 

From Comstock's Magazine:

 

Mather has taken a significant hit, dropping from 167,000 metric tons of cargo in 2000 to 72,000 metric tons in 2008 and to just more than 45,000 in 2011.

 

http://www.comstocks.../payload-denied

 

Mather is a pipe dream amidst declining air cargo shipments statewide.  It's literally sucking money away from SMF.  It's like the bridge to nowhere . . .

 

Note too - that studies suggest moderate declines in home values with increase air cargo flights - leading to tens of millions of dollars in LOCAL lost property tax revenue.

 

From the Sac Bee:

 

The impact of jet aircraft on real estate values has been studied extensively. The results show losses to moderately priced homes as high as 19 percent, and even higher devaluation for higher-priced homes. The county has identified a roughly 200-square-mile area where large jet aircraft can be expected to operate below 3,000 feet. Assuming a mostly residential build-out, the decrease in property values could run in the billions. For example, with a 10 percent drop in values, a loss of $8 billion would occur if one-third of the 200 square miles were used for $400,000 homes at only five per acre. Local governments would lose more than $80 million each year in property taxes.

 

http://www.sacbee.co...l#storylink=cpy



#57 Rich_T

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:05 PM

I'm encouraged by the discouraging report of Mather's future as a cargo hub.

 

As for the line <<you'll note that gear doesn't come down until the planes are near Hwy 50 / Prarie City Road>>... that would perhaps explain why it sometimes seems so noisy here in Willow Springs



#58 Robert Gary

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:15 PM

I'm encouraged by the discouraging report of Mather's future as a cargo hub.

 

As for the line <<you'll note that gear doesn't come down until the planes are near Hwy 50 / Prarie City Road>>... that would perhaps explain why it sometimes seems so noisy here in Willow Springs

 

 

 

 

From Comstock's Magazine:

 

Mather has taken a significant hit, dropping from 167,000 metric tons of cargo in 2000 to 72,000 metric tons in 2008 and to just more than 45,000 in 2011.

 

http://www.comstocks.../payload-denied

 

Mather is a pipe dream amidst declining air cargo shipments statewide.  It's literally sucking money away from SMF.  It's like the bridge to nowhere . . .

 

Note too - that studies suggest moderate declines in home values with increase air cargo flights - leading to tens of millions of dollars in LOCAL lost property tax revenue.

 

From the Sac Bee:

 

The impact of jet aircraft on real estate values has been studied extensively. The results show losses to moderately priced homes as high as 19 percent, and even higher devaluation for higher-priced homes. The county has identified a roughly 200-square-mile area where large jet aircraft can be expected to operate below 3,000 feet. Assuming a mostly residential build-out, the decrease in property values could run in the billions. For example, with a 10 percent drop in values, a loss of $8 billion would occur if one-third of the 200 square miles were used for $400,000 homes at only five per acre. Local governments would lose more than $80 million each year in property taxes.

 

http://www.sacbee.co...l#storylink=cpy

 

 

Right, it s not going to be a major cargo hub. So there is no reason for the city to sue the airport on the expectation of a  traffic increase that no one has predicted. 



#59 (Cheesesteak)

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:19 PM

I'm encouraged by the discouraging report of Mather's future as a cargo hub.

 

As for the line <<you'll note that gear doesn't come down until the planes are near Hwy 50 / Prarie City Road>>... that would perhaps explain why it sometimes seems so noisy here in Willow Springs

 

Your location certainly might explain it.

 

Here's another article on the dollars and cents of Mather - from the Sac Business Journal. 

 

http://www.bizjourna...in-freight.html

 

Notably:

 

Although the numbers inched back up last year by 1.8 percent, the two airports combined still handled just 232 million pounds — about 10 percent below the total for 2002. Meanwhile, the county airport system spent $960,000 to subsidize operations at Mather last year.

 

That's a lot of cheese right there . . . so - as fares to and from SMF increase as airlines pass on the higher fees charged to land at SMF - be comforted to know that a portion of that money is being used to help Mather stay afloat . . .



 

Right, it s not going to be a major cargo hub. So there is no reason for the city to sue the airport on the expectation of a  traffic increase that no one has predicted. 

 

That no one has predicted?  Have you read the County's Airport Expansion plan for Mather?



#60 Robert Gary

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:22 PM

 

Your location certainly might explain it.

 

Here's another article on the dollars and cents of Mather - from the Sac Business Journal. 

 

http://www.bizjourna...in-freight.html

 

Notably:

 

Although the numbers inched back up last year by 1.8 percent, the two airports combined still handled just 232 million pounds — about 10 percent below the total for 2002. Meanwhile, the county airport system spent $960,000 to subsidize operations at Mather last year.

 

That's a lot of cheese right there . . . so - as fares to and from SMF increase as airlines pass on the higher fees charged to land at SMF - be comforted to know that a portion of that money is being used to help Mather stay afloat . . .

 

They're not planning the airport for next week. They're planning for the next decades.

 

-Robert






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