131 replies to this topic

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Chris, oh wow. You know how to use a multi meter. Nice talent. And an expert on pH sensors? I've always wondered...when you see the pH number for a solution, exactly what does that number represent? If you see the pH of a solution is 7, tell me about the math and what that 7 number represents and how it's derived.

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Carl, you are correct. Most natural phenomena do occur in cycles. Cyclic means that they occur at somewhat regular intervals and the peaks and troughs of each interval has about the same magnitude. A good example is the annual temperature changes in Folsom. In the summer, Folsom temperatures average in the 90's and in the Winter they average in the high 30's. These changes occur over and over again as the years pass. So the average temperature in Folsom is indeed part of a cycle.

The problem with the changes we are seeing in the climate right now is that they don't appear to be part of a cycle. A fundamental climate parameter that is being measured with a high degree of accuracy and precision is atmospheric CO2 concentration. The data shows CO2 concentration is growing at an accelerating rate. Real CO2 data extends back about 800,000 years and the data doesn't show any cycle that comes close to the current CO2 growth rate. So it's not part of any cycle. This is what concerns scientists.

From my perspective, it's probably too late to have a serious effect on climate change. The problems will be how societies and nations will react to the climate changes. IMO, almost no one is preparing for the problems that will happen. We're already starting to see the effects of tidal flooding along the east coast. Tidal flooding is the result of global warming, which is the result of elevated CO2 levels. Cities and communities will end up spending huge amounts of $$$ reacting to global warming. $$$ that would be better spent in their cities. I believe the climate changes will become a serious global problem as time goes on. It won't be pretty.

[Chris]

Chris, oh wow. You know how to use a multi meter. Nice talent. And an expert on pH sensors? I've always wondered...when you see the pH number for a solution, exactly what does that number represent? If you see the pH of a solution is 7, tell me about the math and what that 7 number represents and how it's derived.

Yes, comes in handy in trouble shooting electrical systems on cars or around the house testing or modifying your electrical system.   Ever try to diagnose a bad electronic control module or have a problem with an electronic fuel pump in a car...?  Takes a bit of work and time to figure it out....   Worst thing is an intermittent short on a car electrical system....   Those can drive you nuts....!   I used to restore old cars back in the day....   Anyway, you missed the point again.  You may be an instrument guy, sell them, make them, whatever, and that's great.  What you missed is that I interact with them all day long at work as stated before.  And my point was that your AGW theory relies on instrumentation of days past which were generally very crude, unreliable, and non standard all over the world.  Just in my last 30+ years of using many different kinds of instruments I have seen great improvements in the new (digital) ones. Ease of use, better accuracy, tighter bands of control, longer life, etc.   And as for your pH question....   Well, let's just say I have seen no improvements in the last 30 years, they are pretty good just as they are.  Chris

 

p.s.  One sad thing I have noted now a days is that the new kids just out of college don't even know what a multi meter is or how to use it....!  I have to show them the basics. This works for me though, because then they can help me with my cell phone which they seem to know everything about....!

[The Average Joe]

The problem with the changes we are seeing in the climate right now is that they don't appear to be part of a cycle...

 

The CO2 is obviously not part of a cycle.

 

It is impossible to determine whether modest sea level rise and temperature rise are a continuation of ongoing warming cycle since the ice age or are partially a contribution from man.  They are changing on geologic timescales that have huge swings over short timescales of decades or centuries..  3 mm a year sea rise may seem like a lot (1 foot every hundred years), but the oceans have risen 360 feet since the last ice age. At times it rose ten times the current rate...without any help from man.

 

Tidal flooding is the result of global warming, which is the result of elevated CO2 levels.

 

No it's not and no it isn't. Tidal flooding? Seriously? Even under the most generous claims for sea level rise, the oceans have risen slightly less than 2 inches since the hysteria began. 2... inches.  That could in no way cause "tidal flooding" significant enough to impact anything.  now in 100 years, that one foot rise MAY impact some low lying areas just as it has for thousands of years. We will adapt. Just as we have for the last 10 thousand years.  

There is no definitive correlation between CO2 level and temperature level. It is a theory that seems plausible, maybe even logical on the surface, but has many holes the deeper you dig.

 

Don't the best cons have a grain of truth to them?

 

Context from NOAA:

 

Global sea level has fluctuated widely in the recent geologic past. It stood 4-6 meters above the present during the last interglacial period, 125,000 years ago, but was 120 m lower at the peak of the last ice age, around 20,000 years ago. A study of past sea level fluctuations provides a longer-term geologic context,

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Joe,  In regard to tidal flooding...at this point in time, you can bring all the numbers in you want to debunk any ideas about the impacts of tidal floods.  In the face of the current evidence regarding tidal flooding,  the projections, forecasts, estimates, expectations, prognostications, or prior data suggesting it can't happen really don't matter.  What evidence you ask?  Here is a short list of very recent real world events that includes irrefutable evidence on tidal flooding...PHOTOGRAPHS:

 

- http://www.broward.o...alFlooding.aspx

 

- http://www.climatece...us-cities-18148

 

- http://www.marinij.c.../NEWS/151129905

 

- http://breaking911.c...costal-sections-of-queens-staten-island-and-brooklyn/

 

- https://weather.com/...rf-october-2015

 

- http://blog.uscusa.o...communities-673

 

An argument that these events have been happening all along is invalid because you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that towns, cities, and communities would have allowed the building of roads, parking lots, commercial buildings and residential structures in areas that would flood like this 2-4 times a month.  These events are new, and haven't happened in the past.  And the scary part is that we're just seeing the leading edge of these types of problems.  This will create huge financial losses for individuals, small businesses, corporations, and municipalities going forward.  And no one is ready for it.  The sky is falling??   Yes it is!

 

For more photographs, do a Google search for "tidal flooding news".  Thousands of images to view. 

 

p.s. - they haven't been photoshopped

[GrumpyOldGuy]

A couple more links with lots of images:

 

- https://www.washingt...outheast-coast/

 

- http://breaking911.c...d-and-brooklyn/  

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Sorry - most of the links posted earlier don't work, not sure why.  Try again...

 

http://breaking911.c...d-and-Brooklyn/

 

http://blog.ucsusa.o...communities-673

 

https://www.washingt...outheast-coast/

 

If they don't work again, then search for "tidal flooding news" on Google.  Lots of pics.

[2 Aces]

Sorry, it's not our job to search the internet for *climate change myths & exaggerations*...that's YOUR job.

[The Average Joe]

The links show the "average" high tide and the anticipated high tide during (shockingly) hurricane season. Duh. Ever hear of storm surge? Or storm tide?  Of course if a storm hits during the high tide the water levels will be higher than a normal tide.  There is no corresponding link on those pages to annual increase in sea level. Is there tidal flooding? Of course there is. It is a function of weather patterns and populace buildout. One of the functions of tidal "catastrophe" is the number of people now living in those zones. Ever drive down the coast of Oregon? Every few miles, there are signs stating you are entering a potential flood zone.  If you build near the sea (or the Sacramento Valley), you are at risk for flooding. If you build in the mountains, you are at risk for fire and landslide. If you build in the desert, you are at risk for drought. And yet that is where we build. And then act shocked that something bad happens. According to NOAA: From 1990-2008, population density increased by 32% in Gulf coastal counties, 17% in Atlantic coastal counties, and 16% in Hawaii (U.S. Census Bureau 2010)

 

  Will London and New Orleans eventually be submerged? Yep. Will our coastline change? Yep. Not in our lifetimes, but eventually. The oceans have been rising for the last 20 thousand years. They will continue to do so until the next ice age. Did the Sahara become a desert because of CO2 forcing? Of course not. Did the Bering Sea land bridge become submerged because of CO2 forcing? Of course not. Nature will do what it will do. Any forcing by man is insignificant to natural forcings.

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Aces - you crack me up.  the articles have photographs of tidal flooding, but you consider them exaggerations.  ok...   Can't trust those photos, huh.

 

Joe - the Washington Post article, none of the examples they cite were associated with any storms at sea.  But we're making progress.  You did admit that sea levels are rising. Now if you'll admit they will have a significant economic impact on the areas affected, then you & I are actually on the same page.

[Chris]

Can't wait for 20-30 years from now for this to come full circle and you "Climate Clowns" to start pushing the Ice Age is coming stuff again just like back in the 70's..........  

 

Hope I'm alive to see it...  

 

That and landing a human on Mars.  Can't wait....!

 

Chris

[folsombound]

Climate Change deniers crack me up.  You won't believe hard evidence and just believe crack-pot non-scientists who tell you what you want to hear.  Good luck with that!

[Chris]

What cracks me up is the chart and numbers below that show past CO2 levels in Earths history....  And you Climate Clowns freak out at 400 ppm....?

 

What cracks me up is that of all the variables in climate change you Climate Clowns picked CO2 as your "demon" molecule......?

 

What cracks me up is that you Climate Clowns never even acknowledge the Sun and its influence on the Earths climate.....  It's kinda important...!

 

What cracks me up is that you Climate Clowns think CO2 is the cause of global warming and that Man is to blame.  CO2 is obviously a byproduct of what is going on right now....  What has gone on in the past, and what will happen again.  Can I explain it...?  No.  Can you and all your AGW shill scientist and progressive AGW fan boys explain it...?  No. Has it happened before...?  Why yes it has, and in spades.  See below.  

 

50 million years ago, CO2 at about 500 ppm...

100 million years ago, CO2 at about 1800 ppm....
200 million years ago, CO2 at about 1500 ppm....
300 million years ago, CO2 at about 300 ppm....
400 million years ago, CO2 at about 3500 ppm...
500 million years ago, CO2 at about 4800 ppm....

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Chris,  reading your last post carefully, it seems that you're trying to defend something that you admit you don't understand.  To quote you:

 

"Can I explain it...?  No."

 

No one is freaking out at 400 ppm.  Scientists are concerned about how rapidly it's arrived at 400 ppm and how rapidly it's  headed to 500 ppm.  Oh, darn.  There I go with that evil "rate of change" concept.  A concept you seem unable to grasp.

 

Chris,  we live in a country where you are allowed to believe what you wish.  In fact, I would vigorously defend your right to believe what you wish.  But science moves forward at an ever increasing rate and to keep up, sometimes you have to change your views on things.  Scientists change their views all the time, particularly when they learn new information.  I'm with them.  I change my views on science & technology often.  Please join us.

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Chris,  one more thing...Are you the guy who told the Wright Brothers, "That thing will never fly"?