132 replies to this topic

[Carl G]

Isn't history boring enough as it is.  It appears that we have a teacher trying to engage young minds and be provocative.  From interviews with current students, the teacher seems to be liked and his teaching techniques appreciated.

 

Here is a picture of my son's homework from this year at that same school:

 

So, what is the bigger crime?  This from an English teacher or a History teacher doing things to make his subject real to the students?

 

Growing up my mom always taught us "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me."  I guess we have moved away from that belief and that now even words and pictures can cause grievous wounds, at least to a career.  I really doubt that a single student lost any sleep from seeing that flag.

[Who_Do_You_Trust]

WDYT, I agree with what you said. I think I should have been more specific about the Public Square. By that I meant the schools and Gov't buildings basically. Like in S. Carolina where they just removed the Confederate Flag. My point was that those who pay taxes should not be subjected to hurtful things, no matter how many find them ok.

Didn't they remove God from the public square? A HUGE mistake btw. Why though? For those who don't believe who are a tiny minority.

I think the streets and our homes are all fair game for protests and likes of our choice. A kid though in school should not have stuff like this shoved in their faces. A person going to a gov't building should not have to see the Rebel Flag. Props to Niki Haley.

Other than that I agree with you as I said. If this post doesn't clear it up for you just let me know my man. I am willing to discuss further. Unlike others who have no skills you bring a lot to the table and I do appreciate your input.

 

Trails,  appreciate your view, but it’s counter to the letter and intent of the 1^st amendment.  Citizens are allowed free speech on any government or public property and that includes schools and government buildings.  Citizens are not protected from offensive speech or “hurtful things”.  In fact, the “public square” is the only place where free speech can be exercised.  The Bill of Rights doesn’t pertain to private property, only public property.  So, regardless of what some people, or the PC police want, offensive speech cannot be prohibited in the “public square” or anywhere on public property.

 

The Confederate flag was removed from So Carolina public buildings because the government is NOT protected by the Bill of Rights, only citizens enjoy those protections.  So the government can be prohibited from showing a Confederate flag, but citizens cannot.  You have the right to walk around So Carolina public buildings with a Confederate flag if you wish.  The government can't do it, however.

 

Secondly, you asked, “Didn't they remove God from the public square?”  The answer is yes, and again because of the 1^st amendment.  It specifically states, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”.  In other words, the government cannot endorse, promote, or favor any religion over any other religion.  By placing God (presumed to be a Christian God) in government buildings and schools, the government has the appearance of promoting Christianity over other religions.  The 1^st amendment specifically prohibits this.  Who is to say the Christian God is the one to favor?  Just as an example, this would discriminate against Hindus because they pray to four different Gods, none of them the Christian one.

 

Sorry to turn this into a civics lesson, but the Bill of Rights and what it says are important.  It’s the set of rules that every American has agreed to live by (whether you know it or not).

[Carl G]

WDYT - what is the distinction between the "government" and a teacher who is employed by the government?  While the teach is a citizen, he is acting in an official capacity so where do his rights stop as a citizen and a student's start?

[bordercolliefan]

The Sacramento Bee had an excellent discussion of the Board meeting. Some of the students' and teachers' comments and questions are truly poignant.

http://www.sacbee.co...e127629644.html


Folsom Cordova board accused of trying to sanitize history with Confederate flag response

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.co...#storylink=cpyA standing-room-only crowd voiced overwhelming support for a controversial middle school history teacher Thursday night and accused the Folsom Cordova Unified School District board of unjustly forcing him to retire.

Sutter Middle School teacher Woody Hart had been placed on administrative leave earlier in the week for displaying a Confederate flag in his classroom, along with a Union flag, as part of a Civil War simulation.



Before opening the public comment period during Thursdays school board meeting, board President Zak Ford announced that district trustees had accepted Harts retirement and the teacher would not be returning to the classroom.



Later in the meeting, parents, teachers and students chastised board members for their treatment of Hart and for failing to listen to public sentiment. Some said the boards actions would have a chilling effect on teachers and promote the sanitizing of history.

The Confederate flag is a wart on our history, but gosh darn it, its part of our history, Folsom resident Cliff Zall told the board. The next thing you know, history is not going to be history, its going to be what we wish it was.




Hart had been the subject of a complaint filed in November by the family of a black Folsom student after the teacher used a lynching analogy to define how states treat individuals under the constitution. He told the eighth-grade class: When you hang one black person, you have to hang them all (as) that is equality, according to a complaint filed by the family of 13-year-old Tyler McIntyre.

Anytime you have a teacher or staff member accused of racially insensitive behavior again, particularly more than once its our responsibility to fully investigate, Ford said. Taking that action is necessary to get to the bottom of any allegation and it also reminds our families that we take such allegations seriously.

Tyler McIntyres father, Tyrie McIntyre, thanked board members, saying he appreciated their decision.

I understand people who support Mr. Hart, and they understand him on a different level, McIntyre said.




McIntyre was supported by a handful of speakers who argued that the Confederate flag is a symbol of hate and has no place in a classroom, regardless of the context.

But many who spoke criticized the trustees for taking action in Harts case without first hearing what community members had to say.

Allison Simmons, a junior at Folsom High School, said Hart was her eighth-grade teacher. Simmons said she hated history until she participated in his classroom simulations, which made history come alive. The classes didnt promote racial insensitivity, but quite the opposite, she said.

Hes teaching you whats right and whats wrong throughout history so you dont repeat it, Simmons said. You guys made a stupid decision to take the best teacher away from so many students, she told the board.




David Werra, a history teacher at Folsom High School, said teaching students about civil rights and race relations is one of his most important missions. For years, Werra said, he has used a sign once found in many restaurants, that says No dogs, no Negroes, no Mexicans, to help students distinguish between overt and covert discrimination.

Although Ford said that the investigation of the Hart matter does not mean teachers should be afraid to be provocative or to use historical artifacts to help students understand uncomfortable aspects of history, Werra said he felt he now needed to ask whether he would have the support of the school district to use the sign in his classroom.

It is a question I didnt have before yesterday, he said.

In a letter sent to Folsom Cordova employees, District Superintendent Deborah Bettencourt, said several teachers had asked how they might be affected by the boards investigation of the complaints involving Hart.

Let me be clear: We do not want to limit the free speech of our teachers Our expectations, however, are that teachers and staff will do this work using culturally appropriate strategies, she said in the letter.

That means reflecting on, and making an effort to understand, the unique experiences our students bring to the table. Creating an educational environment where students of all backgrounds do not feel alienated or unsafe is our top priority.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.co...l#storylink=cpy

[danholein1]

Can someone please tell me what happens to someone after they feel they have been offended for whatever reason (racial, sexual orientation, dirty joke, etc.)?  I don't understand the next step that happens to someone that has been offended. 

 

I think in recent years everyone is offended by just about everything.  It has become the new "in" thing.  Being offended by everything has diminished the term offended.

[2 Aces]

Dan, I'll tell you what happens: they then feel emboldened to go look for another instance to be offended at.

We're becoming a nation of delicate little snowflakes and PC police. It's a miracle that they even survive adulthood. They're soft, and they always will be.

[Who_Do_You_Trust]

WDYT - what is the distinction between the "government" and a teacher who is employed by the government?  While the teach is a citizen, he is acting in an official capacity so where do his rights stop as a citizen and a student's start?

Carl,  this is a gray area.  There have been different court rulings in different states.  

 

In general though, if a teacher uses some offensive symbol or speech to profess his personal beliefs, then it is probably protected.  However, since schools control course content and teaching methods, if a teacher uses some offensive symbol or speech (particularly if it is limited by a school policy) as part of the teaching process, the speech made be prohibited.  Recently however, some courts have ruled that schools may not discipline teachers for sharing certain controversial words or concepts in class that are relevant to the curriculum.  this would seem to apply to the Folsom case.

 

So to answer your question - it's a coin toss.  It could go either way depending on what state you live in and how good your lawyer is.

[Who_Do_You_Trust]

Can someone please tell me what happens to someone after they feel they have been offended for whatever reason (racial, sexual orientation, dirty joke, etc.)?  I don't understand the next step that happens to someone that has been offended. 

 

I think in recent years everyone is offended by just about everything.  It has become the new "in" thing.  Being offended by everything has diminished the term offended.

 

danholein1 - One of four things happens:

 

1)  the offended goes home and cries a bit, maybe complains to others, but gets over it and moves on.

 

2)  the offended doesn't care, and probably isn't offended by any kind of speech.  moves on like nothing happened.

 

3)  the offended decides to get even and file a civil lawsuit.  He goes to court and gets smacked in the head with the 1st amendment.  He loses and goes home.

 

4)  (this is a variation of #3)  the offended files a civil lawsuit hoping to get a substantial monetary judgement.  His version of the winning the lottery.  He loses and goes home.

 

Personally, I'm #2.  there is probably nothing you can say that will offend me.  I may question your sanity, or intelligence, or motives, or ability to do critical thinking, but won't be offended.

[danholein1]

Dan, I'll tell you what happens. Afterwards they feel violated and sad maybe even depressed. They feel like everyone is looking at them in a different way. They become self conscience. This is especially hard on school age kids who often feel the brunt of it after class where there are haters and bullies emboldened outside the classroom. Surely you know this. You went to school too. I know where you are coming from when you say it's overdone today. I can agree with that in many instances. I draw the line though when it's gov't and schools. People paying taxes should expect equal treatment without bias.
In your own home or like WDYT says in the public square and streets do as you like. It's America. So long as you don't hurt anyone you are fre to express in whatever way you like.

 

Given your examples I assume you have heard things that offended you throughout your life.  What did you have to do to overcome it?

 

I treat people with respect until I am not shown respect.  With that said, it depends on how you react to such offending situations that makes you a stronger or weaker person inside and I believe being a stronger person starts with parents raising their kids to be stronger than those using the offending language. I was raised that way and couldn't care less what anyone says to me.  Being offended gives the offender the power which is exactly what they are looking for.  It also perpetuates the continued use of the offending language.  Now violence (sexual, racial, etc.) is a whole different story.  Remember the saying "sticks and stones"? 

[bordercolliefan]

I am saddened that Folsom Trails and the small group who demanded action against Mr. Hart are reaching conclusions by slogans and race-baiting rather than actually trying to engage in an empathetic, just examination of all the facts and evidence.

People heard the words "lynching" and "black people," and assumed that Mr. Hart was a horrible racist advocating this practice. When the misleading claim was made that a Confederate flag was "found" in his office, they demanded he be fired. These people refuse to accept any mitigating evidence that has since emerged, including that: (1) Mr. Hart admitted the "lynching" thought came out differently than intended and expressed regret; (2) Mr. Hart is liberal and legions of former parents and students attested they have seen no questionable conduct; (3) The Confederate flag was part of a classroom activity with BOTH the Confederate and Union flag; (4) Mr. Hart sent home permission slips for the activity, and all parents consented; and (5) Mr. Hart has a black grandson.

Hmm.... doesn't sound like a raging white supremacist... but the PC train can't be stopped.

This is not justice. I have no doubt that President Obama, in his great fairness and wisdom, would reject the hysterical, identity-politics driven rush to condemn this man, and would insist on a full understanding of who this man is, his lifetime of service to kids and society, and his decades of teaching with no history of racist incidents.

Shame on those who won't view Mr. Hart as a human being, but only as a scapegoat for racist grievances.

[2 Aces]

Mr. Hart is a Liberal. I detest Liberalism, yet I support and defend him in this situation.

We need to crush this *witch hunt* stuff. Where are the grown-ups? The kids are the ones making the most sense on this issue.