70 replies to this topic

[cybertrano]

It's all speculation here, so far I haven't seen any accusation in this thread.

[Steve Heard]

If you accuse me, no. If the law accuses me, absolutely. That's the way we do it here in America. Freedom of speech. Freedom of the press. Even if we don't like it, we protect it.

Michael Jackson hasn't been convicted, nor has Kobe Bryant, Bill Clinton, Scott Peterson, or that teacher from Empire Oaks, yet we know so much about their cases.

What about politicians? They get dragged through the mud as soon as the dare to run for office.

I'll try not to commit too many more crimes.

[OctoberLily]

Eric, thanks for correcting my slander vs. libel mistake.

What everyone seems to forget is that these kids were NOT charged with anything. Hawaii PD would NEVER let them leave the state if there was sufficient evidence to convict them of a crime. However, "JAMA" has already tried and convicted them even before charges were made and the investigation complete. I would hate to have her as a juror in any trial.

The difference with Kobe, Michael Jackson, Bill Clinton, etc., is that they are "celebrities" and have plastered themselves voluntarily on the news, etc. They are legitimate targets for a news story.

These kids are not vying for public attention. Their families are not clamoring to get your opinions on whether their son or brother or nephew committed a crime. However, some of you are clamoring to do what the newspapers do and that is to try and convict people without a trial. Freedom of Speech? BS... They are trying to sell papers. They are in the business of selling the news whether their news is right or wrong. In the meantime, they taint potential jurors who have the power to put people in jail for a very long time. They don't care about that fact. They don't care about the shame and the embarassment placed on the families of these kids. They don't care about the fact that these kids could be INNOCENT.

I've seen a lot of crap kids can do when they are drunk and/or high on some drug. It would not surprise me if this girl was so drunk and so high that she climbed the railing and fell to her death. It is extremely sad for me to even know that a young life was lost so needlessly. It's also sad to know that these boys could have met the same fate as their friend. I'm pretty sure the parents of these boys are thinking the same thing. It could have been their son who fell to their death. This beautiful girl obviously had a lot of potential in life. However, she made a mistake and with poor judgment decided to drink along side these boys.

The lesson I think we as parents can take from this is that alcohol and drugs are an enormous problem when it comes to our kids. We shouldn't be placing blame on anyone - not the boys, not the girl - not their parents. This is a tragedy that we can learn from and hope our kids do not repeat.

Instead of showing compassion and empathy to the families involved, some people want to gossip.

[john]

A hearty AMEN to you, Octoberlily.

QUOTE

Freedom of Speech? BS... They are trying to sell papers. They are in the business of selling the news whether their news is right or wrong.

This is the absolute truth. Scandal sells papers... they're quick to make decisions and "get the scoop" even if they know it's all based on speculation. I made the judgement call not to release their names because I think their names are unimportant, and I will not buy in to the free media's rush to a story. If it was so important, look it up on any of the articles regarding this tragedy. I just don't want any part of it.

[Steve Heard]

October

The most important thing you said was this: "The lesson I think we as parents can take from this is that alcohol and drugs are an enormous problem when it comes to our kids."

You hit it right on the money. I have been involved in community action to combat the problem of drugs and alcohol abuse among Folsom kids. I've worked through the school, healthcare, and the police department. We formed a commitee, and held a forum last April. I think about 200 parents showed up. Encouraged by our success, we sought to expand the program, and held another one in May, with the theme of having a 'Sober Summer'.

At this Forum, we had police, healthcare professionals, counselors, and parent volunteers ready to provide information, resources and support for Folsom parents and kids.

We got front page stories in the Telegraph and Folsom Life. This was going to be bigger and better than anything we'd ever done, we thought. We'll really wanted parents to understand the problems, get together with one another, learn to see the warning signs and help our kids, and to understand that drug and alcohol experimentation is more dangerous than ever, and is not a rite or right of passage.

About 12 people showed up.

I was truly shocked.

It proved that adults aren't taking this seriously, and the problems persist because of it.

October, where I disagree is when you say, "We shouldn't be placing blame on anyone - not the boys, not the girl - not their parents."

That's not true. We can and should blame everyone. From the drunken girl, the drunken boys, the adult supposedly supervising the girl, the hotel or whomever sold them or furnished them drinks, the parents who didn't get through to their kids, and the society that takes is so lightly. "Boys will be boys", "Girls just wanna have fun", "We all did it".

This tragedy will repeat itself over and over and over again. I am doing all I can to guide and protect my child. Still, she knows her friends can get booze, drugs or anything else they want. Sometimes, from their own parents. Heck, some parents even say they'd rather have their kids and their kids friends partying in their house than out on the street somewhere. The problem is, you create a permissive environment, and the kids don't have the will or discipline to control themselves.

There is a reason one must be 21 to drink. It's called maturity. Of course, alcohol and drug induced accidents happen to people of all ages, but we have to try, at the very least try, to give our kids a chance to get to the age of majority without the risk involved with drugs and alcohol.

This may be a little off topic, but as is the case so often, tragedy followed binging on alcohol.

Other than that, I haven't given it much thougt.




This is a tragedy that we can learn from and hope our kids do not repeat.

[jama_75@hotmail.com]

I thinks that Eric's reply and laurens picture are a good way to end this discussion

Lauren Crossan

[OctoberLily]

LOCAL SACTO TEEN FALLS FROM THIRD FLOOR WINDOW IN HAWAII.

Diana Griego Erwin: Mom warns: Grad's 'safe' dream trip can become parent's nightmare
By Diana Griego Erwin -- Bee Staff Writer
Published 2:15 a.m. PST Tuesday, February 3, 2004

Cheryl Rommel is sending a cautionary letter around to anyone who will listen. About this time last year, Rommel was mulling over whether to allow her son, a high school senior, to go on a faraway graduation trip. We're not talking Disneyland or Great America here.

Many of today's students, especially those attending more affluent schools, think it's almost a given their parents will foot the bill for a grad trip to places as exotic as Cancun, Hawaii or Europe.

Travel companies, in fact, all of them unaffiliated with schools, market these trips to teens, recruiting on-campus "reps" who get free trips if they sign up a certain number of students. "It's not just a grad trip anymore," says the advertising of one such company. "These trips are events. ... Having just completed 12 years of school, you need to celebrate, build lasting memories, meet other new graduates from around the country... ." Notice the word "need."

Rommel's son thought he needed such a trip, too, what with his buddies going to Hawaii. His parents relented, believing an "organized trip" meant something.

"You always think that because your child has never been in trouble, is involved in sports or other activities, and gets decent grades that if anything happens it will be to 'somebody else,' not my child," Rommel said. "My son was that 'someone else.'

"My son graduated from Del Campo High School on June 3, 2003. On June 10, my husband and I said goodbye. ... He had worked for months to help pay for the trip. ... He'd purchased travelers checks, packed the sunscreen and knew all of the rules."

The family maintained daily contact, but it wasn't enough. "As parents we don't always know what line to draw when it comes to giving them their independence. He had just turned 18 and was having fun on a vacation with his friends."

Trouble came only a few days into his trip. "The students on these grad trips meet many students from different schools," Rommel said. "They stay up all night, share drinks. ... They move from hotel room to hotel room having a good time. The brochures will tell you about their zero-tolerance rule. Rules are only effective when enforced. ...

"We don't have all the answers as to what happened to our son. What we do know is that we received the phone call every parent dreads. When you are asked to be seated before the conversation can continue, no matter how much you pray the words coming from the other end of the phone won't come, they do. The doctors were calling to inform us that our son was fighting for his life after surviving a fall from a third-floor window.

"Can we go back six months to when the brochure first came home? Can we go back three months to when the trip was paid in full? Can we go back to June 10 when we ... sent our son on his way? We can't go back."

The young man came home, but "his life is changed forever," his mother says, remaining, I think, purposely vague. "If a grad trip away from home is something you are considering for your senior, please learn from our experience. ... Mostly, do not assume that because you have chosen a company that has a well-done brochure that boasts of many years of successful vacations that your child is safe."

Indeed, the language of the brochures caters to teen sensibilities, not parents' real concerns. Take one company's answer to the question, "Do you supply chaperones?"

"Not exactly. You are treated as responsible adults. We provide professional, adult ... staff housed on site at each resort. Our staff are there to help you out if you have any problems, not to baby-sit you like chaperones. You only graduate from high school once in your life, and we want to ensure that you have the most enjoyable, safest trip possible."

Anyone else just get poked in the eye with a big red flag?

What were we thinking? she seems to ask. "These teenagers are embarking on, for most of them, their first vacation alone, (an) experience with complete independence along with hundreds, if not thousands, of other high-school-aged children," Rommel said.

[OctoberLily]

I thought I would share the story above because the 2005 seniors at Folsom High School have been approached by a representative of one of these "student" travel agencies.

I received a brochure from one of my kids and read the fine print over and over and could not believe my eyes. In the brochure, it states specifically: "The "drinking age" in the Republic of Mexico and the Bahamas is 18 years old and is seldom enforced. The "drinking age" in Hawaii is 21 years old. [student travel agency] has contractual relationships with ground tour operators in Mexico and the Bahamas who sell optional activity packages to our travelers. Some of these packages may make alcoholic beverages available. ..."

Then they want you and your child to sign acknowledging that you have read, understand and release these people from liability for negligence, personal injury or property damage. In other words, you are signing away your rights and your child's rights when you allow them to join one of these "student vacations".

Also in big bold letters, they state [student travel agency] and staff ARE NOT CHAPERONES.

I'm currently in a battle with my child over this and we are now debating the PROs and CONs of him going with a group of thousands of other kids on these student travel groups or him going with just his small group of friends.

Another thing, most travel agencies advertise air and room rates at a package price for "double occupancy" (2 to a room) - these student travel agencies offer a higher rate for air and room for quad occupancy (4 to a room)! I'm sorry but 4 kids in a room is really really tight. Imagine 4 grown men in 2 double beds in one bedroom and a bath.

I am really against travel agencies targeting kids for International or overseas travel especially when they offer no security measures to make sure these kids return home safe and sound.

They only provide a "24 hour Destination Travel Staff" which is basically a useless group of people who are like event coordinators. They do not guarantee your child's safety. If anything, they have written a long disclaimer in their brochure that states these kids are basically responsible for whatever happens to them while they are in Mexico, the Bahamas or Hawaii. In other words, if your child falls off a third floor window, YOU are responsible for getting your child home because he will probably miss his scheduled departure flight for which the student travel agency is not responsible for. It's all in fine print.

I wonder how many kids are killed, hurt or imprisoned in international countries or overseas while on these "student" vacations. I bet it's more than one or two.

[tessieca]

October: statistically, the risk of sending your child is probably far greater than you would ever willfully take. There are those stories you hear about, and there are those stories you do not hear about. I know someone who's son fell out of an upper story window on one of these trips. The child luckily had no lasting effects, but the parent has the nightmare of that middle-of-the-night call and the second guessing about having let him go in the first place. Then, there are the stupid things youngsters will do when under the influence of alcohol; things that might not kill them but might alter their lives.

They ALL do that "everyone else gets to go" thing. I fought against that with my eldest and offered her other celebrations. My son did not ask. I have two more to go and probably will have to fight again.

I think one of the hardest parts for parents whose children are begging to take these trips is that even if you say "no," many will be off to college in just a few more months and they can do the same stupid things then. I guess the difference is that most colleges don't set up an atmosphere where partying is the only thing to do, and drinking is readily accepted and in fact expected. (Yes, some schools do -- choose wisely).

Would you go along with them playing Russian Roulette just because they could do it without your permission in a few months?

[bordercolliefan]

My girls are 3 and 4 now, so I have a while before I have to face this issue. But when I read about the trend toward kids taking these high school graduation trips, my reaction was "NO WAY are my girls ever going on one of these trips!!!"

I completely agree with the prior post. College has its own risks -- but at least the essence of college is NOT going there just to party, and most schools now at least give strong lip service to discouraging drinking (though I agree, they could do a lot more). These graduation trips are clearly directed just toward partying and drinking.

It makes me angry that in the name of the almighty dollar, companies will market all kinds of stuff to kids that is not in their best interest and undermines what responsible parents are trying to do. For example: these "party" trips, today's music with the horrible lyrics and sexualized videos, etc. etc. --Don't the people who put this stuff out there have any sense of responsibility or decency?

[EDF]

Bordercolle...

To ask the question.. is to answer it...

No.. they don't care.. its not their responsibility.... except for the BOTTOM LINE....

[DalOwnerX3]

Like Bordercollie, I have a 4 yr old girl and there's no way she would go on one of those trips. But I wonder if she was a boy, would I be so adamant about it.

[Steve Heard]

Hey Y'all

I knew a guy who used to work as a recruiter/chaperone for one of the companies that 'organize' those trips to Mexico. He did it to get the free trips, and because his buddy assured him that he'd get laid as much as he wanted during each trip.

The allure for the kids is being free of parents, American morals (whatever they are), and underage drinking laws.

According to what I've heard, read and seen, they hold parties where everyone is encouraged to get as drunk as possible, and then the 'fun' begins. Guys get horny and aggressive and the girls get loose and permissive.

They sell it to each other as part of growing up.

To me, it's just another way of pushing our kids toward lower moral standards, with expectations that this sort of behavior is normal, acceptable, and again, part of growing up, and better yet, they can make a bundle while doing it.

I used to be in the travel business. I was threatened with a lawsuit by one of my customers for not knowing what was going on on the ship my company booked her on. She went on a 4 day cruise to Mexico in June, and was appalled to find that there were dozens of kids, all unchaperoned who had apparently been given the cruise as graduation presents. She described scenes of them drinking, falling, fighting, groping, vomiting, and a line of several young men who were waiting their turn with a girl in a restroom.

The cruise line refunded her money, and promised to change the rules, requiring minors to be accompanied by someone over 21.

I couldn't believe that they didn't have that rule in place before.

It's not just these graduation trips that put our kids at risk.

I am old enough to remember when parents drove their kids to the prom, then the kids borrowed the car so they could go to dinner and the prom and get a little independence, now it's limousines and hotel rooms for the afterparty.

Parents, don't accept drug and alcohol abuse (it's NOT experimentation) as normal part of growing up. It's not. It doesn't matter if 'we did it when we were young'. That's no excuse. I also got run over by a car when jaywalking, that doesn't mean I'll let my kids find out the dangers for themselves.

Those companies would be put out of business if the parents took this seriously, instead of caving in and hoping that their kids don't get hurt.

I gotta get back to work, otherwise, I'd write pages on this subject. With all the crap that we argue about, politics, religion, immigration, etc, we don't address the biggest threat to our future, and that is a generation of kids coming up with no moral compass, risking their own futures, their brains, health, reputations, and their lives in the name of 'partying'.

[OctoberLily]

Steve, thanks for the additional info. I'm definitely putting my foot down on using these Student Travel Agencies. We were outright disgusted that some of the chaperone's use these trips as opportunities to get lei'd.

[Orangetj]

It amazes me how spoiled kids are starting to get. I'm not all that old and when I graduated from high school, I couldn't have conceived of my parents sending me off on a party trip to Hawaii or some such place. "Everyone else gets to go...", yeah right. I wonder how many kids from downtown Sacramento, North Highlands, Citrus Heights, Elverta, South Sac, etc. go on trips like this. I'm betting it isn't many. I know that as parents we want to give our kids the best we can, but this is getting ridiculous.

My feeling is that if a kid wants to take a trip to Hawaii after graduating, they can do it with money they've earned at a job "gasp...what's a job?" and with a small group of friends, not hundreds of other kids. Having lived in a dorm my first year of college, I feel pretty confident that sending your kid off on a trip like this with a thousand other kids is just asking for trouble.