92 replies to this topic

[bordercolliefan]

I disagree-- I think class size is very important. First, a smaller class size gives the teacher more opportunity to work individually with students who need extra help. With 30 kids, this is a virtual impossibility. Second, even aside from the issue of individual attention, a higher class size means a greater chaos level -- at any given moment, more kids who are talking when they shouldn't be, more kids who need to go to the bathroom, etc. It is for this reason that the NAEYC (which accredits child care programs) says that parents should look at BOTH the teacher-child ratio AND the total class size -- too many kids in a single classroom is too much noise and chaos. Admittedly the importance of the latter factor probably diminishes as the kids get older, but certainly in kindergarten and the early grades, I think the concern would apply.

I think the reason that St. John's gets good results even with a higher class size is because of the built-in advantages of a private school: they can be selective as to whom they admit and expel kids who don't meet behavioral standards. As a private school, they have fewer (or no) kids who need the "extra" help that makes class size a concern.

[bordercolliefan]

By the way, Tessieca, I was intrigued by your comment that you find the bashing of the Folsom public schools unwarranted, and that you have made the public/private decision differently for different kids. I hope you'll elaborate for the benefit of those of us who are trying to figure out what to do ... I'm sure we'd be interested in your thoughts/experiences.

Thanks to everyone who has contribured their thoughts and comments to this thread. It has been very interesting and thought-provoking.

[DalOwnerX3]

My concern about class size is that my daughter is a bit shy. It took her 6 months to get used to her preschool class of 20. Her teachers say that 20 is probably the upper limit that she can do. So for her early years, at least through 3rd grade, we'd prefer her to be in a smaller class so she has one less thing to deal with.

My wife called the school and the 1st-3rd grade classes are still at 20 but that's not for certain in the future.

Still undecided.

[forumreader]

To bordercollie, let me emphasize that I said "not necessarily" when speaking of class size and educational results. There are of course many other factors to consider. -- If given a choice, and not having to make a trade-off, I would have a younger child in a smaller classroom.

[EDF]

Regarding Class sizes....

There really is no evidence that smaller class sizes help kids in learning...

Good teachers and involved parents are the key...PERIOD...

Class size reduction is just another JOBS PROGRAM... Period...

Why don't you look at the amount of money they have spent on reducing class size... For that amount of money we've spent, there is no coresponding increase in test scores...

What's their answer...? "We need to spend more money on education".. pray tell folks... how much of the state budget is spent on Education now... hmm......? do you know.....?

Parents should be allowed to put their kids in a government run public, charter or private schools... and they should get a voucher if they don't want to have their kids in the government schools...

Just my ever so humble opinion....

[melloguy]

Good editorial today in the Bee about our education spending and Arnold's recent deal with the California Teachers Association (CTA):

http://www.sacbee.co...p-9105638c.html

Sorry EDF, but our State taxes do not provide adequate support for public education even if it is the largest expenditure in the Governor's budget. Our per pupil spending as compared to the national average and our cost of living is abysmal. We don't even need to discuss how our public education compares to other industrialized nations where they understand it takes a village to raise a child. Here, all it takes is a village idiot (or two!)to ruin our children. The discussion on honor roll proves that.

Sorry, but there are some government programs that should never be shorted - education, law enforcement, and fire protection come immediately to mind. For years, we have been scrimping on our education funding. Other areas, such as Davis, recognize this and tax themselves appropriately to provide services beyond what is available through State funding. One example of this is the Spanish immersion classes they offer in grade school for English speaking students. All classes are taught in Spanish so the children truly learn the language.

Food for thought for our conservative readers - Almost all will agree that Folsom is a bastion of conservatism. As such, our offspring are also more likely conservative. If liberal communities, such as Davis, are willing to spend more tax dollars on education than the more conservative communities, does this mean that their children will be better educated and, therefore, more likely to be the future leaders of our State?

[bordercolliefan]

I agree-- our school spending is an embarassment compared to the rest of the nation. The article noted that even though our per pupil spending is among the lowest in the nation, our teacher salaries are among the HIGHEST in the nation. Therefore... more of our money is going to the teachers, less to the kids. I don't begrudge the teachers the extra $$, though -- after all, our cost of living is among the highest in the nation, too. But I do think we need to increase school spending overall.

Re: class size. The opinion has been expressed that class size reduction does not improve test scores. Even if this is true, there are other measures of an effective education besides test scores. If smaller class size makes the class feel more "personal" to the student; gives the student that much more opportunity to participate during class; makes the student more invested in the class and more excited about learning ... those are all worthwhile outcomes that may not be measureable by test scores. Think back to your own college days: remember how the small classes were much more stimulating and interesting than the big lecture hall courses?

[EDF]

I have to weigh in here regarding the "spending" on public education.

The last two posts I think are well meaning.. but so misguided...

Yes the Teachers in this state are in the top 10 when it comes to pay and benefits... we spend plenty enough for the kids...50% of the entire budget... we've seen no corresponding increase in scores now have we... so money is not the problem folks....

The comment about other industrialized nations having higher scores goes to show you how bad our system is... and its not because of a lack of money...we out spend them too... don't we....?

They, other countries, do a lot of "rote" learning which they don't do much here... We also have this facination with "team teaching"... which dumbs down the kids...and I can go on and on... what about the over diagnosis of ADD... and the drugging of our children... and what about these so called "educators" getting in between us and our kids when it comes to "birth control and abortion"... maybe ya'll should attend the next school board meeting....

I have put two boys through the Folsom Schools and I think that the only reason they are better than say the ones in Rancho is that we have more PARENTAL involvement.

Knowing what I do now, I would have sent my kids to a private school.

And for the person that says we don't spend enough... well... let me point out that in New Jersey for example they spend I think upwards of like $9,000 per kid... and guess what their biggest complaint is....?

WE DON'T SPEND ENOUGH ON EDUCATION !!!!

And one more thing that I hope some of you "Lib's" out there may start to understand... and that is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF ALL OF OUR ILLS IN THIS COUNTRY.!!!!

Yes... Yes... please call me a racists if it makes you feel better... but try and refute these facts because they are....

Crowded Schools and costly programs for Illegal Aliens
Crowded Emergency rooms with illegal aliens,
Crowded Roads with Ilegal Aliens with no isurance
Crowded Prisons - 25% of which are Illegal Aliens - Did you know that 95% of the outstanding murder warrants in LA are for Illegal Aliens..
Ever Increasing College Fees - But Illegals get free loans...?


Now go and vote for your favorite "elitist" Republican or Democrat... but don't ask me to pay for anymore of it....

Ya'll gotta wake up here... and see the BIG PICTURE.....

[tessieca]

Bordercollie: I first sent my eldest to a Catholic school because that is what I wanted to do. The church was a good setting for her since she had just lost her father in an accident. After that first year I could not do so because the Catholic schools required too much voluntary time that I could not give because I was then a single, working parent of two small children.

When my son was ready for kindergarten I was shocked to learn of the class sizes in public school. My son was very shy at the time, and his preschool teachers were not certain he would succeed in a large classroom (brains yes, but no courage and relied a lot on big sis). I kept him at private school for a year, then moved him quite successfully into the larger classroom at 1st grade.

We also tried private high school for him for a year. Academically, it was a great program (Jesuit); however, none of his school friends were nearby, he could not be involved in a sport or other activities because of transportation, he was left on campus until evening on concert days because of transportation, etc. In any event, we brought him back to FHS for the duration. He probably cruised a bit more academically, and there were regrettable parts to his social schedule that I later learned about, but overall he did well and moved on to a good university.

I tried to enroll others at different times in private school, in large part because I dislike plenty of the things the state requires, such as "family life" courses, but waiting lists, transportation, and money have stepped in the way.

If I didn't work and had more patience than I do, I would home school. That way nobody could interfere with my values education and my parenting. I know one mother who moves her kids in and out of home schooling and public school. This way she gives them the benefits of both over the course of a couple of years, and sometimes that means she only has one at home at a time.

See what I mean by personal decisions. Most parents who decide to private and home school kids don't do so strictly for academics. Folsom schools are great with the academic part. If you keep a close eye on things and be involved (where did I hear that EDF??), your public school experience can be very good. I do agree with EDF that to the extent you keep an eye on what is going on in the classroom and help to direct your child's public education, the better off you'll be. I would not just leave it up to self-proclaimed experts to decide what your child should learn, when they should learn it, and how they should learn it.

I don't want someone else taking care of my children's needs without my direction and input, just like I wouldn't want someone else (i.e. another woman) to help my husband with his needs.

[forumreader]

Wow, tessieca, you hit the nail on the head with your last statement! Parents must be allowed to retain their primary rights and responsibilities to attend to their children's needs, and to set boundaries for their educators. No legislation, state teaching content standard, district, school or classroom policy should presume to weaken the parent-child relationship. Is that relationship not the strongest and most basic of all human instincts? Well, maybe equal to self-preservation.

Now it seems that preservation of "self" as parent in the eyes of our school district is before us, as we look at theh "Confidential Medical Appt. Student Release" law. If you currently have children in public school, or ever plan on enrolling them, please make every effort to attend the FCUSD School Board Meeting on Feb. 5 - 6pm at the High School library. Or, email the school board members with your thoughts.

I spoke today with an administrator at the District Office. He encouraged me and other parents to speak out on this issue. It seems that there is some division within the Board and among administrators on how this state law should be implemented in the District. Potentially there are liability issues facing the school, no matter what they do. Might the interpretation of the law end up being decided in court? Possibly. Nonetheless, parents need to make themselves heard. We need to contact our state respresentatives also. Last spring, AB 1041, which would have repealed this ugly law, failed to receive support. ..... I wish I had known about it then. But, I do now, and can take action.

I probably should have posted this on the "Release" discussion. Oh well, I will go there next. But back to the public v. private dilemma -- I can only speak about the public education that my oldest has had. There has been good and bad. Much of my disappointment is that my child has not been challenged enough and that I've needed to supplement his education at home. But I can live with that. What is harder to digest is a general environment that often doesn't support my family values, and sometimes is in direct contradiction to them. -- But you can counter that too if you know your enemy.

Get involved as much as possible in the school, especially in the classroom. Meet everyone (principal, office staff, nurse, teachers, other volunteers), and never hesitate to ask questions. Keep a critical mind, open eyes, and a smile on your face. (The smile is especially important for your child!) And remember, generally these are good people trying their best to work for children, but within a bad system.

[tessieca]

Hey Forumreader, in my opinion the legal concerns are hype used to keep people quiet. When I first asked about the confidential medical policy years ago, I was told flat out that it was required -- the school district MUST have a policy to release kids without telling their parents. I later found out this is not true. The policy is optional, and the only legal requirement is that if you have a policy to excuse kids, you must notify the parents of the policy.

School districts have been successfully sued, on the other hand, for taking "responsibility" for sending kids off to secret appointments, then having the children suffer harm (i.e. post-op trauma) that nobody is following up on because the parents are unaware of what has happened.

There's a concept in law that when someone "undertakes to act," they assume responsibility for results. A district, for example, is not required to bus kids to school, but if they decide to do so, they are responsible for ensuring safe bus stops and routes, etc. They don't have to act, but they have undertaken to do so and must act responsibly. I see this as a similar situation.

Board members emails: rbenton@fcusd.k12.ca.us, saramyers.home.com@worldnet.att.net or smyers@fcusd.k12.ca.us,
tstanley@fcusd.k12.ca.us,
rshaw@fcusd.k12.ca.us,
eshort@fcusd.k12.ca.us.

[forumreader]

Tessieca, thank you for the email addresses and all the knowledge you have shared on this topic.

I am with you 100%, and I do hope you will be heard by our school board members. You eloquently and intelligently express the opinions of those of us trying to protect our parental rights.

Although there have been some critical opinions expressed in this discussion of "Folsom Public Schools," I still maintain that most people involved in education are looking out for the best interests of children. Most parents have made the interests of their children a priority. (Yes, there are bad parents in the world, but I like to think they are in the minority.).......In my experience with public education, the teachers and administrators ask that parents be partners in the education of the children....... How dare ignorant liberal legislators undermine the school/parent relationship! How dare they with even greater audacity undermine the vital parent/child relationship!

It's not just a bad law. It's a dangerous law!

I'm done with my complaining for the evening. Thank you again!

[EDF]

Tessica...

where on the agenda is this item going to be... can this thing be brought up right away... cause there is going to be a crowd there I am sure... at least I hope there is going to be a crowd there...

and by the way... do you think the "teachers union" is going to be there against us, along with some of those other "staffers" who are in favor of this outrage....?

Inquiring minds need to know... Because.... I might have a date with a new gal that I would have to "re-schedule"... I gotta make my appearance as the " White wing wacko"... In addition... what are we going to get... the usual "3 minutes each to speak"...?

And finally... where do the votes stand now..? have you talked with them all about it... I know where Sara stands... I love her but it just "p's" me off her take on it... I wonder how she would have felt if her daughter had taken advantage of this policy when she was raising her..... and Sara had no knowledge of it...Think she would feel differant... ?

[forumreader]

It sounds like tessieca is very involved with the Board/Administration.....
Another question in addition to EDF's - Does anyone know where the Superintendent stands on this issue?

When I asked questions of the District Office staff last week, I was directed to Mindi Nunes. She was very careful not to express an opinion one way or another, but did keep coming back to the issue of "legal obligation."

[tessieca]

Unfortunately, the issue was placed on the calendar as a "discussion only" item! That means there will be no vote at this Thursday's meeting. The item will directly follow the consent agenda, so it should occur shortly after 6:00 p.m.

The union has not taken a formal position. Nurses are favoring the current policy. Students favor the policy. At least one adminstrator who has to make these decisions is asking that the policy be changed so that she does not have to. The top-level administration is trying to walk a fine line and not anger board, staff, or community. The decision will be up to the board, and the administration will do what the board dictates.

At the last meeting where this was discussed, Ed Short, Teresa Stanley, and Roger Benton appeared to favor changing the policy. Sara Myers was adamantly opposed, and commented that "parents are the evil doers." Richard Shaw is a former high school principal. He seems to favor leaving the decision in the hands of his former peers.

There has been little input from parents on the issue, most opposed to the current policy. One parent has written to indicate a preference for allowing her children to be released without her knowledge. It would be helpful to hear from more parents.